What does the Confederate Flag mean to you?

[MODU]

The people to fear are the people that run away from alchohol or refuse to go into a sex shop. you can talk to them but they live in world that resembels the 19th century.

You're so right.  Alcohol and sex didn't exist in the 19th century.  They are both recent inventions.

Yes, and people who shy away from alcohol and sex shops are so dangerous, like me.

And me. 

[Giant Saguaro]

It simply means Racism.. so both option one and option two. 

By the way the other day I was out scouting properties for the family and I accidentally drove up a poor pocket - a hollow full of shacks and double wides (there are a lot of those still left among the new high end developments in the suburbs here.)  Anyway I saw a mobile home with a huge confederate flag flying above it.  Who knows what the intent of the owner was, though hatred was very likely a part of the message he wished to send.  Naturally my skin crawled.

you need to get out more. next time you see one try and talk to them and you will realize that they are just like you.

The people to fear are the people that run away from alchohol or refuse to go into a sex shop. you can talk to them but they live in world that resembels the 19th century.

There's a classic.

You know what else? Not only are those of us who don't hunt up sex shops or 'run away from alcohol' (as opposed to running in the direction of it?) outright dangerous... we of course without doubt also believe 940 heads and 60 tails is statistically insignificant...

[angus]

Hmmm.  I'll go with option one I suppose.

More importantly, what does Michael Jackson's one white glove mean to you? 

[Virginian87]

Hmmm.  I'll go with option one I suppose.

More importantly, what does Michael Jackson's one white glove mean to you? 

It is his way of healing racial unrest by symbolically straddling the races. 

[Jake]

More importantly, what does Michael Jackson's one white glove mean to you? 

I'd rather not think about it (Shudders)

[angus]

Hey, that's good Virginian.  Seriously.  Robert Bork was on some talking head show a few minutes ago on MSNBC and they had a quote by Bush's SC nominee about michael's "one white glove"   You don't want to know, but my mind was totally in the gutter with that one.  Now I can have a little better association to put with the image.  Thanks.

[??????????]

Hey, that's good Virginian.  Seriously.  Robert Bork was on some talking head show a few minutes ago on MSNBC and they had a quote by Bush's SC nominee about michael's "one white glove"   You don't want to know, but my mind was totally in the gutter with that one.  Now I can have a little better association to put with the image.  Thanks.

Speaking of which.

http://www.madblast.com/index.cfm?action=view&id=5367&scid=9683

[CARLHAYDEN]

Don't forget Joe Johnston was also a very capable individual.  Had Davis not removed him a put in Hood, the Confederates might have been able to hold out long enough to effect the 1864 election.  It was the fall of Atlanta, more than anything else, that convinced the northern public that the war could be won.  But, Davis didn't want Confederate men "retreating" as he called it, and so, he sacked Johnston, and his very well thought out gradual defense plan, and went with Hood... well, I am sure you know the rest.

I still can't fathom why he put John bell Hood in that position. Was it simp,y because he felt Johnston was fortifying instead of attacking? I know Davis hated Johnston as much as he hated Bearegaurd, but why one armed Hood? I guess ego makes people do stupid things very easily.

Civil War talk is never as fun if States isn't in the conversation.

Imagine if Stonewall Jackson wasn't shot and died shortly after contracting pneumonia during the battle of Chancellorsville. What effect would he have had durring the remainder of the war?

I would like to suggest that the War between the States produced two brilliant genrals (Jackson for the south, and Sherman for the north).

There were a couple of very capable commanders on both sides that did not get the credit they earned due to the inability of the respective Presidents to understand their merits (McClellan for the north, Johnston for the south).

Unfortunately both sides had a lot of idiots in command of troops.

Basically the north won because of its superior resources.

[angus]

Basically the north won because of its superior resources.

it's why the Republicans won then.  it's why the republicans win now.


Go HONE$T ABE.  Go BU$H.  Go $HERMAN.

Resources Rock, baby! 

[??????????]

Basically the north won because of its superior resources.

As I stated earlier in this thread I would strongly disagree with this assumption. It may have been a contributing cause but certainly not the main reason. I suggest you should read The Life of Billy Yank and then The Life of Johnny Reb by Bell Irvin Wiley.

[Virginian87]

Basically the north won because of its superior resources.

As I stated earlier in this thread I would strongly disagree with this assumption. It may have been a contributing cause but certainly not the main reason. I suggest you should read The Life of Billy Yank and then The Life of Johnny Reb by Bell Irvin Wiley.

In addition to industrial superiority, other factors that contributed to the North's victory included the steady tide of immigrants, which allowed the Union to keep replenishing its forces, and of course the tight Union blockade of Southeastern ports.

[Gustaf]

The discussion seems to have strayed off-topic...since the Confederacy and its flag always have been held together by slavery and segregation as their main rallying cry, it's hard for me to view the flag as anything different than that.

[CARLHAYDEN]

I must disagree.

If you look at the record, you will see that most whites in the south at the start of the War between the States did NOT own slaves.

Slavery was only a tangential issue in the conflict.

Remember that even Lincoln did not publicly alledge that abolition of slavery was a factor until late in the war (and slavery continued to be legal in Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky and Missouri until the adoption of the 13th amendment).

Further, segregation was (at the time of the civil war) heavily approved of in the north.

[angus]

Slavery was only a tangential issue in the conflict.

This is what I remember from my history lessons as well, but it's pretty clear from what's being posted here that schools have revised that particular bit of the curriculum.  So the results of the poll probably represent generational differences.  Anyway, I do agree with Gustaf's first statement.  And, if this thread is like most threads, it will stray farther still.  But then that's not always a bad thing. 

[Beefalow and the Consumer]

It is a symbol of rebellion against the United States of America - a country that I have pledged my allegience to, which both my grandfathers fought to defend in WWII, and which was a safe haven for my grandmother, who was fleeing from the extermination of her people.  I will oppose all sedition and rebellion against the United State of America.

Flying the Confederate flag is more offensive to me than burning the American flag.  However, because freedom is what defines our nation, I will defend the right of people to do both.

[??????????]

It is a symbol of rebellion against the United States of America - a country that I have pledged my allegience to, which both my grandfathers fought to defend in WWII, and which was a safe haven for my grandmother, who was fleeing from the extermination of her people.  I will oppose all sedition and rebelloing against the United State of America.

Flying the Confederate flag is more offensive to me than burning the American flag.  However, because freedom is what defines our nation, I will defend the right of people to do both.

Actually those who founded the confederate government did so trying to protect the constitution as intended by the founders. Lincoln and his goons are the ones who corrupted the constitution and have given us the horrible mess we have today.

[??????????]

The discussion seems to have strayed off-topic...since the Confederacy and its flag always have been held together by slavery and segregation as their main rallying cry, it's hard for me to view the flag as anything different than that.

Wow, like the US flag right?

[Gustaf]

The discussion seems to have strayed off-topic...since the Confederacy and its flag always have been held together by slavery and segregation as their main rallying cry, it's hard for me to view the flag as anything different than that.

Wow, like the US flag right?

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here...is it the old " the strongest KKK nest was in Indiana and a lot of Northerners were racist" stuff?

[12th Doctor]

The discussion seems to have strayed off-topic...since the Confederacy and its flag always have been held together by slavery and segregation as their main rallying cry, it's hard for me to view the flag as anything different than that.

That is a horrible misrepresentation of the truth.  My family has proudly flown the Confederate flag since the end of Reconstruction and they were never slaveholders or segregationists.  My family was one of the first in the South (and I believe the first in North Carolina) to intermarry.  And, guess what, they still fly the flag.  My family was a part of the underground railroad.  And guess what, they still signed up to fight in the war.  My family paid for hired blacks to work on the their farm.  And guess what, they paid them the same wage they paid the whites.

[12th Doctor]

The discussion seems to have strayed off-topic...since the Confederacy and its flag always have been held together by slavery and segregation as their main rallying cry, it's hard for me to view the flag as anything different than that.

Wow, like the US flag right?

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here...is it the old " the strongest KKK nest was in Indiana and a lot of Northerners were racist" stuff?

Acctually, now that you mention it, I would like to just reiterate that it is a fact that the KKK is, and has been for a number of decades, strongest in Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Ohio and PA and even in some parts of New York, Minnesota and Wisconsin.

The clan is very strong where I come from, and, believe it or not, they protest the Republicans and Democrats, both.  They have no political affiliation, though, supposedly, they do support the occational Constitution Party candidates.  And they are only growing stronger, as more blacks move in from the cities.

Most Northerners are strongly anti-racist in principle but in parctice, they are worse than their Southern counterparts.  Just wait until black people start moving into the neighborhood and see how they react.

[Gustaf]

The discussion seems to have strayed off-topic...since the Confederacy and its flag always have been held together by slavery and segregation as their main rallying cry, it's hard for me to view the flag as anything different than that.

That is a horrible misrepresentation of the truth.  My family has proudly flown the Confederate flag since the end of Reconstruction and they were never slaveholders or segregationists.  My family was one of the first in the South (and I believe the first in North Carolina) to intermarry.  And, guess what, they still fly the flag.  My family was a part of the underground railroad.  And guess what, they still signed up to fight in the war.  My family paid for hired blacks to work on the their farm.  And guess what, they paid them the same wage they paid the whites.

My view is simply this. The Confederate flag represented teh Confederacy. The Confederacy was founded to save slavery (and most inhabitants there voted for a pro-slavery candidate). Southern political leaders using the confederate flag and States Rights rethoric has clearly been mostly concerned with race issues. See Thurmond and Wallace. Now, I know that the actual Civil War is somewhat different and that state loyalties played a big part there (as it did with Lee, for isntance). My point is not that Soutehrners are racist, but that the confederacy was by and large founded on racism.

[??????????]

The discussion seems to have strayed off-topic...since the Confederacy and its flag always have been held together by slavery and segregation as their main rallying cry, it's hard for me to view the flag as anything different than that.

That is a horrible misrepresentation of the truth.  My family has proudly flown the Confederate flag since the end of Reconstruction and they were never slaveholders or segregationists.  My family was one of the first in the South (and I believe the first in North Carolina) to intermarry.  And, guess what, they still fly the flag.  My family was a part of the underground railroad.  And guess what, they still signed up to fight in the war.  My family paid for hired blacks to work on the their farm.  And guess what, they paid them the same wage they paid the whites.

My view is simply this. The Confederate flag represented teh Confederacy. The Confederacy was founded to save slavery (and most inhabitants there voted for a pro-slavery candidate). Southern political leaders using the confederate flag and States Rights rethoric has clearly been mostly concerned with race issues. See Thurmond and Wallace. Now, I know that the actual Civil War is somewhat different and that state loyalties played a big part there (as it did with Lee, for isntance). My point is not that Soutehrners are racist, but that the confederacy was by and large founded on racism.

This is why foreigners have no business meddling in our affairs. They have no basis of fact in which to degrade our country.

[Smash255]

The discussion seems to have strayed off-topic...since the Confederacy and its flag always have been held together by slavery and segregation as their main rallying cry, it's hard for me to view the flag as anything different than that.

That is a horrible misrepresentation of the truth.  My family has proudly flown the Confederate flag since the end of Reconstruction and they were never slaveholders or segregationists.  My family was one of the first in the South (and I believe the first in North Carolina) to intermarry.  And, guess what, they still fly the flag.  My family was a part of the underground railroad.  And guess what, they still signed up to fight in the war.  My family paid for hired blacks to work on the their farm.  And guess what, they paid them the same wage they paid the whites.

My view is simply this. The Confederate flag represented teh Confederacy. The Confederacy was founded to save slavery (and most inhabitants there voted for a pro-slavery candidate). Southern political leaders using the confederate flag and States Rights rethoric has clearly been mostly concerned with race issues. See Thurmond and Wallace. Now, I know that the actual Civil War is somewhat different and that state loyalties played a big part there (as it did with Lee, for isntance). My point is not that Soutehrners are racist, but that the confederacy was by and large founded on racism.

This is why foreigners have no business meddling in our affairs. They have no basis of fact in which to degrade our country.

Anyone who doesn't think that the utter horrific practice of slavery wasn't a major factor in the Confederecy is completley dillusional. 

[12th Doctor]

The discussion seems to have strayed off-topic...since the Confederacy and its flag always have been held together by slavery and segregation as their main rallying cry, it's hard for me to view the flag as anything different than that.

That is a horrible misrepresentation of the truth.  My family has proudly flown the Confederate flag since the end of Reconstruction and they were never slaveholders or segregationists.  My family was one of the first in the South (and I believe the first in North Carolina) to intermarry.  And, guess what, they still fly the flag.  My family was a part of the underground railroad.  And guess what, they still signed up to fight in the war.  My family paid for hired blacks to work on the their farm.  And guess what, they paid them the same wage they paid the whites.

My view is simply this. The Confederate flag represented teh Confederacy. The Confederacy was founded to save slavery (and most inhabitants there voted for a pro-slavery candidate). Southern political leaders using the confederate flag and States Rights rethoric has clearly been mostly concerned with race issues. See Thurmond and Wallace. Now, I know that the actual Civil War is somewhat different and that state loyalties played a big part there (as it did with Lee, for isntance). My point is not that Soutehrners are racist, but that the confederacy was by and large founded on racism.

This is why foreigners have no business meddling in our affairs. They have no basis of fact in which to degrade our country.

I would not say that.  Often times, the only way you can tell if you are being an idiot is if someone else tells you.  In this instance, I disagree with Gus quite a bit and this is a rare instance where I think that lack of expirience might be the prime cause of his views.  However, 9 times out of 10, I would take Gus' view over that of a natural born citizen of the US.

[12th Doctor]

The discussion seems to have strayed off-topic...since the Confederacy and its flag always have been held together by slavery and segregation as their main rallying cry, it's hard for me to view the flag as anything different than that.

That is a horrible misrepresentation of the truth.  My family has proudly flown the Confederate flag since the end of Reconstruction and they were never slaveholders or segregationists.  My family was one of the first in the South (and I believe the first in North Carolina) to intermarry.  And, guess what, they still fly the flag.  My family was a part of the underground railroad.  And guess what, they still signed up to fight in the war.  My family paid for hired blacks to work on the their farm.  And guess what, they paid them the same wage they paid the whites.

My view is simply this. The Confederate flag represented teh Confederacy. The Confederacy was founded to save slavery (and most inhabitants there voted for a pro-slavery candidate). Southern political leaders using the confederate flag and States Rights rethoric has clearly been mostly concerned with race issues. See Thurmond and Wallace. Now, I know that the actual Civil War is somewhat different and that state loyalties played a big part there (as it did with Lee, for isntance). My point is not that Soutehrners are racist, but that the confederacy was by and large founded on racism.

That simply is not true.  For instance, in the Largest slave owning parts of Georgia and Kentucky, Bell, who was a compromise candidate, won by pretty hefty margins, or at least places a solid second.

Many Generals, on both sides are quoted as having stated some variation of what U.S. Grant himself said:

"If I thought this war were being fought over slavery, I would resign my commision right now and go home".

The war was fought over several issues: difference of economies, difference of life styles, difference of social views, difference of views on government, different philosophies on life.  Slavery was used as a scapegoat issue, on both sides, leading up to the war as a means of expressing each sides distaste for the other. 

The war was not fought over white superemacy.  It is a documented fact that, in rare instances, freed blacks in the South acctually owned slaves of their own.  This was accepted practice and no one ever said that blacks did not have a right to own indians, mallateos or even fellow blacks as slaves.

It is true that Southerns had a very paternalistic attitude towards blacks, but the South was a very paternalistic society as a whole, whether you are talking about blacks or whites and continues to be so to this day.