Protestors Topple Confederate Monument in North Carolina

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Can we get rid of every photo of Robert Byrd while we're at it?  Please?

[Mr. Reactionary]

Can we get rid of every photo of Robert Byrd while we're at it?  Please?

FDR threw an entire racial minority in concentration camps. Take his evil racist grin off the dime.

[GeorgiaModerate]

Can we get rid of every photo of Robert Byrd while we're at it?  Please?

FDR threw an entire racial minority in concentration camps. Take his evil racist grin off the dime.

Bill Clinton had a confederate flag on his campaign buttons can we get rid of his statues.

I made this point in the other thread too, but you guys are (perhaps willfully) missing the key distinction here.  This is a false equivalence.  Yes, some good people do bad things, and some bad people do good things.  Very few people are unequivocally good or bad.  The point is that we should not be celebrating traitors as if they were heroes.  Whatever else you say about them, Lee, Jackson, etc. were declared enemies of the United States who fought to tear it apart. 

Can you agree that we should not erect statues to people who fought against this country?

[Mr. Reactionary]

Can we get rid of every photo of Robert Byrd while we're at it?  Please?

FDR threw an entire racial minority in concentration camps. Take his evil racist grin off the dime.

Bill Clinton had a confederate flag on his campaign buttons can we get rid of his statues.

I made this point in the other thread too, but you guys are (perhaps willfully) missing the key distinction here.  This is a false equivalence.  Yes, some good people do bad things, and some bad people do good things.  Very few people are unequivocally good or bad.  The point is that we should not be celebrating traitors as if they were heroes.  Whatever else you say about them, Lee, Jackson, etc. were declared enemies of the United States who fought to tear it apart. 

Can you agree that we should not erect statues to people who fought against this country?

Does that include John Brown?

[GeorgiaModerate]

Can we get rid of every photo of Robert Byrd while we're at it?  Please?

FDR threw an entire racial minority in concentration camps. Take his evil racist grin off the dime.

Bill Clinton had a confederate flag on his campaign buttons can we get rid of his statues.

I made this point in the other thread too, but you guys are (perhaps willfully) missing the key distinction here.  This is a false equivalence.  Yes, some good people do bad things, and some bad people do good things.  Very few people are unequivocally good or bad.  The point is that we should not be celebrating traitors as if they were heroes.  Whatever else you say about them, Lee, Jackson, etc. were declared enemies of the United States who fought to tear it apart. 

Can you agree that we should not erect statues to people who fought against this country?

Does that include John Brown?

Certainly.  Motivation does not excuse behavior.

[Mr. Reactionary]

Can we get rid of every photo of Robert Byrd while we're at it?  Please?

FDR threw an entire racial minority in concentration camps. Take his evil racist grin off the dime.

Bill Clinton had a confederate flag on his campaign buttons can we get rid of his statues.

I made this point in the other thread too, but you guys are (perhaps willfully) missing the key distinction here.  This is a false equivalence.  Yes, some good people do bad things, and some bad people do good things.  Very few people are unequivocally good or bad.  The point is that we should not be celebrating traitors as if they were heroes.  Whatever else you say about them, Lee, Jackson, etc. were declared enemies of the United States who fought to tear it apart. 

Can you agree that we should not erect statues to people who fought against this country?

Does that include John Brown?

Certainly.  Motivation does not excuse behavior.

Fair enough. What about the Albert Pike statue? He was a confederate but the statue is for unrelated stuff he did after the war.

[Helsinkian]

Can you agree that we should not erect statues to people who fought against this country?

There is a George Washington statue in Trafalgar Square, London. Using your logic, would the Britons be justified in tearing it down?

[HisGrace]

Can we get rid of every photo of Robert Byrd while we're at it?  Please?

FDR threw an entire racial minority in concentration camps. Take his evil racist grin off the dime.

Bill Clinton had a confederate flag on his campaign buttons can we get rid of his statues.

I think those were unofficial. Even if they weren't, there's a big difference between a statue of someone who once put a confederate flag on a button and someone who was actually a leader of the  Confederacy.

[GeorgiaModerate]

Can we get rid of every photo of Robert Byrd while we're at it?  Please?

FDR threw an entire racial minority in concentration camps. Take his evil racist grin off the dime.

Bill Clinton had a confederate flag on his campaign buttons can we get rid of his statues.

I made this point in the other thread too, but you guys are (perhaps willfully) missing the key distinction here.  This is a false equivalence.  Yes, some good people do bad things, and some bad people do good things.  Very few people are unequivocally good or bad.  The point is that we should not be celebrating traitors as if they were heroes.  Whatever else you say about them, Lee, Jackson, etc. were declared enemies of the United States who fought to tear it apart.  

Can you agree that we should not erect statues to people who fought against this country?

Does that include John Brown?

Certainly.  Motivation does not excuse behavior.

Fair enough. What about the Albert Pike statue? He was a confederate but the statue is for unrelated stuff he did after the war.

Personally I'd say no, but I recognize that there might be other opinions on this one.  I'll also acknowledge that there may be individuals whose cases might merit an exception, but I stand by the statement as a guiding principle.  Any exceptions would need to be, well, exceptional.

ETA: to clarify, I mean that personally I wouldn't support a statue for Pike.

[GeorgiaModerate]

Can you agree that we should not erect statues to people who fought against this country?

There is a George Washington statue in Trafalgar Square, London. Using your logic, would the Britons be justified in tearing it down?

Sure.  But since the American Revolution and its aftermath are not nearly as divisive in the UK as the Civil War and its aftermath are in the US, I suspect the question is not likely to arise there.

[HisGrace]

I used to be pretty much indifferent on this issue, but leaning towards keeping Confederate monuments. I just didn't care enough to argue with anyone about it let alone protest. Now with them being used as a rallying point for hate groups I think we ought to tear them all down. When you look into it a lot of them were put up in the 50's or 60's, so that's really what they always were, I just hadn't cared enough about the issue to learn about it before.

Can you agree that we should not erect statues to people who fought against this country?

There is a George Washington statue in Trafalgar Square, London. Using your logic, would the Britons be justified in tearing it down?

Wouldn't care either way.

Although I think the reason it's up is to honor the founding of the United States with its representative government and Bill of Rights and all that jazz. Not to just to stick it in the eye of the Civil Rights movement like most the Confederate monuments are.

[SNJ1985]

>Implying George S Patton's political opinion is relevant to any of us

He's just an example of the point I'm trying to make. 1940s American men, including the ones who served in WW2, were not a very left-wing bunch. Plenty of them would sympathize with Trump and/or the alt-right today, contrary to what today's leftists apparently think.

Thomas, if you're trying to make the point that the men born in the early 20th century and (at least among officers) late 19th century are more socially conservative than the average person in the 21st century, you're not exactly giving us a hot take here. Nor a remotely relevant one.

I think it's relevant. Leftists and their sympathizers are posting memes all over social media showing photos of American troops who served in WW2 with captions like ''violent, alt-left thugs''. The memes imply that all of the men in those photos would sympathize with the modern left today, which is an absurd assumption to make.

[Crumpets]

>Implying George S Patton's political opinion is relevant to any of us

He's just an example of the point I'm trying to make. 1940s American men, including the ones who served in WW2, were not a very left-wing bunch. Plenty of them would sympathize with Trump and/or the alt-right today, contrary to what today's leftists apparently think.

Thomas, if you're trying to make the point that the men born in the early 20th century and (at least among officers) late 19th century are more socially conservative than the average person in the 21st century, you're not exactly giving us a hot take here. Nor a remotely relevant one.

I think it's relevant. Leftists and their sympathizers are posting memes all over social media showing photos of American troops who served in WW2 with captions like ''violent, alt-left thugs''. The memes imply that all of the men in those photos would sympathize with the modern left today, which is an absurd assumption to make.

I don't think that's the point they're trying to make as much as that people like Charles Coughlin* and other right wing figures in the US would have painted US vets fighting the Nazis, who like you said were likely not left wing at all and probably leaned right overall, as communist sympathizers. Likewise, today we see anyone who was at the rally to oppose neo-Nazis and the KKK immediately labeled as "alt-left" or "antifa" regardless of what their own personal politics may be. The political spectrum of those who oppose Naziism is just so much broader than some would have you believe.

*I don't actually know enough about Charles Coughlin to know if this is the kind of point he would have made, but he was the first American Nazi sympathizer who popped into my head.

[HisGrace]

>Implying George S Patton's political opinion is relevant to any of us

He's just an example of the point I'm trying to make. 1940s American men, including the ones who served in WW2, were not a very left-wing bunch. Plenty of them would sympathize with Trump and/or the alt-right today, contrary to what today's leftists apparently think.

Thomas, if you're trying to make the point that the men born in the early 20th century and (at least among officers) late 19th century are more socially conservative than the average person in the 21st century, you're not exactly giving us a hot take here. Nor a remotely relevant one.

I think it's relevant. Leftists and their sympathizers are posting memes all over social media showing photos of American troops who served in WW2 with captions like ''violent, alt-left thugs''. The memes imply that all of the men in those photos would sympathize with the modern left today, which is an absurd assumption to make.

No, it implies that they wouldn't like a bunch of guys marching down the street with swastikas and fascist eagles on their arms yelling "blood and soil". They killed people like that. Right-wing outlets are denouncing the counter-protesters as "alt left" despite the fact that the only things they were protesting against were fascism and racism, the things we fought against in WWII.

No one gets called a Nazi for being against abortion and gay marriage. You get called a Nazi for choosing to wear a swastika and attend a rally that was promoted with posters showing a Star of David being smashed with a sledgehammer, caricatures of black people drawn to look like monkeys, and fascist eagles. Despite what the current occupant of the White House says there were no "very fine people" at that rally and their actions were not equivalent to those of anti-racist/fascist protesters. They deserve every bit of condemnation they've received and more, since so many people on the right see fit to defend and make excuses for them.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

>Implying George S Patton's political opinion is relevant to any of us

He's just an example of the point I'm trying to make. 1940s American men, including the ones who served in WW2, were not a very left-wing bunch. Plenty of them would sympathize with Trump and/or the alt-right today, contrary to what today's leftists apparently think.

Thomas, if you're trying to make the point that the men born in the early 20th century and (at least among officers) late 19th century are more socially conservative than the average person in the 21st century, you're not exactly giving us a hot take here. Nor a remotely relevant one.

I think it's relevant. Leftists and their sympathizers are posting memes all over social media showing photos of American troops who served in WW2 with captions like ''violent, alt-left thugs''. The memes imply that all of the men in those photos would sympathize with the modern left today, which is an absurd assumption to make.

No, the memes imply that smashing Nazis (and other fascists) is a good and noble goal to which the vast majority of humanity did and should aspire, no matter our other differences.

[Sumner 1868]

Can we get rid of every photo of Robert Byrd while we're at it?  Please?

FDR threw an entire racial minority in concentration camps. Take his evil racist grin off the dime.

Bill Clinton had a confederate flag on his campaign buttons can we get rid of his statues.

I made this point in the other thread too, but you guys are (perhaps willfully) missing the key distinction here.  This is a false equivalence.  Yes, some good people do bad things, and some bad people do good things.  Very few people are unequivocally good or bad.  The point is that we should not be celebrating traitors as if they were heroes.  Whatever else you say about them, Lee, Jackson, etc. were declared enemies of the United States who fought to tear it apart. 

Can you agree that we should not erect statues to people who fought against this country?

Does that include John Brown?

Brown was no traitor. While he did fiercely oppose the slave power and it's hold on the government, he was never a disunion advocate like Garrison and instead proposed an alternate Constitution. Regardless, he was tried for treason against the state of Virginia and not the United States.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

It's really bonkers that people are tying themselves in knots about this: if you put the bulk of your efforts fighting for a good cause (e.g. against British tyranny, against the Confederate slavocracy, against Jim Crow, against poverty etc) you are a good person that should be honoured, and if you fought for bad causes you're legacy shouldn't be honoured. All these hot takes from the alt right and culture war left alike are reminiscient of the most stupid of all historical takes, the false equivalency ("actually how can you condemn the Nazis, don't you know the raf bombed Dresden!!!!!").

[Mr. Reactionary]

Can we get rid of every photo of Robert Byrd while we're at it?  Please?

FDR threw an entire racial minority in concentration camps. Take his evil racist grin off the dime.

Bill Clinton had a confederate flag on his campaign buttons can we get rid of his statues.

I made this point in the other thread too, but you guys are (perhaps willfully) missing the key distinction here.  This is a false equivalence.  Yes, some good people do bad things, and some bad people do good things.  Very few people are unequivocally good or bad.  The point is that we should not be celebrating traitors as if they were heroes.  Whatever else you say about them, Lee, Jackson, etc. were declared enemies of the United States who fought to tear it apart. 

Can you agree that we should not erect statues to people who fought against this country?

Does that include John Brown?

Brown was no traitor. While he did fiercely oppose the slave power and it's hold on the government, he was never a disunion advocate like Garrison and instead proposed an alternate Constitution. Regardless, he was tried for treason against the state of Virginia and not the United States.

He murdered a bunch of people attacking a federal armory.

[Alabama_Indy10]

Can we get rid of every photo of Robert Byrd while we're at it?  Please?

FDR threw an entire racial minority in concentration camps. Take his evil racist grin off the dime.

Bill Clinton had a confederate flag on his campaign buttons can we get rid of his statues.

I made this point in the other thread too, but you guys are (perhaps willfully) missing the key distinction here.  This is a false equivalence.  Yes, some good people do bad things, and some bad people do good things.  Very few people are unequivocally good or bad.  The point is that we should not be celebrating traitors as if they were heroes.  Whatever else you say about them, Lee, Jackson, etc. were declared enemies of the United States who fought to tear it apart. 

Can you agree that we should not erect statues to people who fought against this country?

Does that include John Brown?

Brown was no traitor. While he did fiercely oppose the slave power and it's hold on the government, he was never a disunion advocate like Garrison and instead proposed an alternate Constitution. Regardless, he was tried for treason against the state of Virginia and not the United States.

What was Virginia at that time?? It was a state. Treason against a state is treason against the United States.

[KingSweden]

Accuse me of moderate heroism all you want, but taking down statues of John Brown is perfectly reasonable in the context of venerating anti-state violence.

That does not mean we shouldn't also take down Confederate monuments, especially since so many of them were erected 60-100 years after the war and have nothing to do with "honoring the fallen"

[SWE]

The alt left continues its crusade to erase history.

[Kingpoleon]

Accuse me of moderate heroism all you want, but taking down statues of John Brown is perfectly reasonable in the context of venerating anti-state violence.

That does not mean we shouldn't also take down Confederate monuments, especially since so many of them were erected 60-100 years after the war and have nothing to do with "honoring the fallen"

You really want to erase the monuments of our history? This isn't about Southern heritage - this is about American history.

I have an avid interest in history. Let us leave up these monuments, not as symbols of the past in support thereof, but that we might not forget our history. Do not erase our history, good or bad. We must remember both if we wish to continue the greatness of America and put an end to the crimes of America. Our history is not one of sheer right and good, but rather a complicated one. As complicated as it might be, our history shows that the forces of evil will not long hold off the forces of good in America.  We should not, however, erase the signs of past evils.

[GeorgiaModerate]

Accuse me of moderate heroism all you want, but taking down statues of John Brown is perfectly reasonable in the context of venerating anti-state violence.

That does not mean we shouldn't also take down Confederate monuments, especially since so many of them were erected 60-100 years after the war and have nothing to do with "honoring the fallen"

You really want to erase the monuments of our history? This isn't about Southern heritage - this is about American history.

I have an avid interest in history. Let us leave up these monuments, not as symbols of the past in support thereof, but that we might not forget our history. Do not erase our history, good or bad. We must remember both if we wish to continue the greatness of America and put an end to the crimes of America. Our history is not one of sheer right and good, but rather a complicated one. As complicated as it might be, our history shows that the forces of evil will not long hold off the forces of good in America.  We should not, however, erase the signs of past evils.

I see your point, but a public statue of an individual is a way of celebrating them.  Would you be OK with moving them to museums?

[Sumner 1868]

Can we get rid of every photo of Robert Byrd while we're at it?  Please?

FDR threw an entire racial minority in concentration camps. Take his evil racist grin off the dime.

Bill Clinton had a confederate flag on his campaign buttons can we get rid of his statues.

I made this point in the other thread too, but you guys are (perhaps willfully) missing the key distinction here.  This is a false equivalence.  Yes, some good people do bad things, and some bad people do good things.  Very few people are unequivocally good or bad.  The point is that we should not be celebrating traitors as if they were heroes.  Whatever else you say about them, Lee, Jackson, etc. were declared enemies of the United States who fought to tear it apart. 

Can you agree that we should not erect statues to people who fought against this country?

Does that include John Brown?

Brown was no traitor. While he did fiercely oppose the slave power and it's hold on the government, he was never a disunion advocate like Garrison and instead proposed an alternate Constitution. Regardless, he was tried for treason against the state of Virginia and not the United States.

What was Virginia at that time?? It was a state. Treason against a state is treason against the United States.

Brown wasn't a Virginian, but even if he had been he was trying to free 500,000 Virginians. I  think "treason" only applies if one is actively seeking destruction of the nation, which was not Brown's goal. In any case, it was Robert E. Lee's forces that arrested Brown for treason against Virginia, so clearly "against one against all" isn't how they viewed it pre-14th amendment. They just wanted a charge with more bite than "murder" or "insurrection" so they chose "treason."

[Badger]

Oh, and yes, there is just a teensy teensy tiny difference between pulling down a statue and physically assaulting another human being, let alone running 20 of them down in the car

I don't think anyone said otherwise......oh and when are you leaving the BAL club?  You really need a red or socialist avatar,  you big lug. 

Sorry, "BAL"?