UK General Discussion: 2017 and onwards, Mayhem

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Smith, of course, pushed his luck for some reason (why?) and the Leadership reacted in a harsher way than I guess he'd calculated (perhaps due to lingering mistrust regarding the events of 2016, perhaps out of a desire to distract attention from the other brewing clusterfyck). It's a shame because he was good on his brief. Ah, but that's politics. Mostly it's a bit crap really.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Incidentally all those people (invariably non-Jewish) who every now and again have clutched their lapels and argued that because of Corbyn all Jewish members should leave Labour might wish to note that the present increase in pressure relating to that issue is due pretty much entirely to Luciana Berger...

[EPG]

(As a conciliatory gesture, I offer a hostage to fortune. I'm suggesting that Labour will lose Kensington next time, even if they hold Crewe. Laugh if they don't. I can't understand the obsession on all sides with fish and I don't think fish will matter, at least in Kensington, or any other English seat. But the 2017 coalitions will change, and a lot of London targets will be fools' gold.)

I agree that Corbyn's greatest strength is his distinctive personality allowing him to attract ex-voters of the Green Party, far-left parties and a lot of Lib Dems, groups who do not really care about niceties he transgresses. It alienates people who already distrust Labour, like most Jewish voters. That's usually costless, but may also have led to a greater intensity of support for the government. Unknowable.

I interpret the cryptic comment as saying that Corbyn is now safe to depart at a time of his choosing without a coup. If so, I agree on that too. But if he really has that ability to get through on an unnoticed frequency like the rogue component of a Fourier transform, it may not do much good either way to lose both the up and the down.

[parochial boy]

Labour's problem

Definitely Labour's problem

[DavidB.]

Labour's problem

Definitely Labour's problem

Yes, all parties in the UK have a problem with antisemitism, and antisemitism is probably more of a problem among the white British middle-class than among the white working-class (but of course it is much more of a problem in Muslim communities than in either of these two). British middle-class antisemitism has always struck me as particularly vile.

This former Tory MP has been stupid, presenting his friend with Nazi paraphernalia to be "edgy". That said, as far as I know, he never proposed any actual policies that would target Jews negatively and he was even a member of the Conservative Friends of Israel. Surely he was not a real danger to Jews. Meanwhile, Labour have a leader whose "problematic" views on Israel and, seemingly by extension, Jews are deeply interwoven in his ideology, and who can be expected to act upon this ideology once in power, endangering Jews in Israel and possibly in Britain as well: the example of Ilmar Reepalu, the Social Democratic mayor of Malmö who said Jews should move to Israel if they do not want to be the target of antisemitic violence, comes to mind.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

At the end of the day, people expect higher standards from the Left. They're right to.

[Hnv1]

Labour's problem

Definitely Labour's problem

Yes, all parties in the UK have a problem with antisemitism, and antisemitism is probably more of a problem among the white British middle-class than among the white working-class (but of course it is much more of a problem in Muslim communities than in either of these two). British middle-class antisemitism has always struck me as particularly vile.

This former Tory MP has been stupid, presenting his friend with Nazi paraphernalia to be "edgy". That said, as far as I know, he never proposed any actual policies that would target Jews negatively and he was even a member of the Conservative Friends of Israel. Surely he was not a real danger to Jews. Meanwhile, Labour have a leader whose "problematic" views on Israel and, seemingly by extension, Jews are deeply interwoven in his ideology, and who can be expected to act upon this ideology once in power, endangering Jews in Israel and possibly in Britain as well: the example of Ilmar Reepalu, the Social Democratic mayor of Malmö who said Jews should move to Israel if they do not want to be the target of antisemitic violence, comes to mind.

Second that, the most antisemitic party for me are the LibDem

[DavidB.]

Labour's problem

Definitely Labour's problem

Yes, all parties in the UK have a problem with antisemitism, and antisemitism is probably more of a problem among the white British middle-class than among the white working-class (but of course it is much more of a problem in Muslim communities than in either of these two). British middle-class antisemitism has always struck me as particularly vile.

This former Tory MP has been stupid, presenting his friend with Nazi paraphernalia to be "edgy". That said, as far as I know, he never proposed any actual policies that would target Jews negatively and he was even a member of the Conservative Friends of Israel. Surely he was not a real danger to Jews. Meanwhile, Labour have a leader whose "problematic" views on Israel and, seemingly by extension, Jews are deeply interwoven in his ideology, and who can be expected to act upon this ideology once in power, endangering Jews in Israel and possibly in Britain as well: the example of Ilmar Reepalu, the Social Democratic mayor of Malmö who said Jews should move to Israel if they do not want to be the target of antisemitic violence, comes to mind.

Second that, the most antisemitic party for me are the LibDem

Agreed.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

The protests today are inspiring, and it's good to see the pushback start in force before it's too late.

[Blair]

Fwiw Labour hasn’t felt this well fractured since 2016.

This round of anti-semtism does feel different. It’s interesting how quiet the leadership\usual pro JC media figures (outside the fringe) have been

[Filuwaúrdjan]

This round of anti-semtism does feel different. It’s interesting how quiet the leadership\usual pro JC media figures (outside the fringe) have been

It is interesting - especially when you remember how functionally irrelevant that fringe is (for all the attention it gets, and o/c enjoys getting). I think at least in terms of media figures etc a factor is that a) this particular mess did not emanate from a hostile newspaper article (and actually as a media story it was picked up pretty late), and that b) it isn't possible to mutter tired excuses about e.g. Israel as evasion.

[GoTfan]

The protests today are inspiring, and it's good to see the pushback start in force before it's too late.

So because I support Corbyn, I'm anti-Semitic?

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

The protests today are inspiring, and it's good to see the pushback start in force before it's too late.

So because I support Corbyn, I'm anti-Semitic?

My post said nothing of the sort. But since you asked, at this point, you're either anti-semitic or you don't care that you want to elect an anti-semitic leader.

[GoTfan]

The protests today are inspiring, and it's good to see the pushback start in force before it's too late.

So because I support Corbyn, I'm anti-Semitic?

My post said nothing of the sort. But since you asked, at this point, you're either anti-semitic or you don't care that you want to elect an anti-semitic leader.

Ah, black and white morality. That went off without a hitch in the 1190s.

[ViaActiva]

The protests today are inspiring, and it's good to see the pushback start in force before it's too late.

So because I support Corbyn, I'm anti-Semitic?

No, but you're endorsing a moral coward for Prime Minister who has tolerated anti-semitism for years.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

The protests today are inspiring, and it's good to see the pushback start in force before it's too late.

So because I support Corbyn, I'm anti-Semitic?

My post said nothing of the sort. But since you asked, at this point, you're either anti-semitic or you don't care that you want to elect an anti-semitic leader.

Ah, black and white morality. That went off without a hitch in the 1190s.

And tolerating anti-semitism out of leaders for the supposed "big picture". worked wonderfully in the 1930s. That's what I'm more worried about.

Of course, neither of us are actually from the UK, so what we say doesn't matter, but I choose to stand in solidarity with the people who are threatened by anti-semitism. You stand in solidarity with the man who keeps "accidentally" endorsing it.

[EPG]

Labour's problem

Definitely Labour's problem

Of course not Labour's problem, but why get vicarious hurt feelings when the vast majority of the Labour P.P. also recognises this as a problem? The cause of vicariously supporting other country's ideological leaders is a fun one, but not one ultimately worth defending anti-Semitic art for.

If there is a difference, I suppose it is that the Leader of the UK Labour Party supported a mural depicting an international conspiracy of big-nosed men with stacks of money propped up on the backs of humanity, rather than standing beside a man who did a Nazi salute. If the leader of the Conservative Party also supported anti-Semitic art, the Conservatives would also be widely perceived as having a problem, I think.

[Horus]

I still don't get how the portrait is anti semitic. They looked like gilded age guys, none of them obviously Jewish. Such a silly controversy.

[Horus]

This is anti semitic as well now?

[parochial boy]

Labour's problem

Definitely Labour's problem

Of course not Labour's problem, but why get vicarious hurt feelings when the vast majority of the Labour P.P. also recognises this as a problem? The cause of vicariously supporting other country's ideological leaders is a fun one, but not one ultimately worth defending anti-Semitic art for.

If there is a difference, I suppose it is that the Leader of the UK Labour Party supported a mural depicting an international conspiracy of big-nosed men with stacks of money propped up on the backs of humanity, rather than standing beside a man who did a Nazi salute. If the leader of the Conservative Party also supported anti-Semitic art, the Conservatives would also be widely perceived as having a problem, I think.

See, I actually do think that there are issues with antisemitism within the Labour party that it needs to address. What frustrates me is that the UK media seem to have only just discovered that anti-semitism is a problem since Corbyn became leader of the Labour party; and this is even after 5 years of not too subtle dog whistling about Ed Milliband.

As David pointed out earlier, there is a nasty level of anti-semitism that exists within the British middle class across the political spectrum; but it has seemingly only become relevant as a stick to beat the Labour party with (which in turns fuels more paranoia and resentment of the media among Corbyn supporters, and so on a so forth in a continuous cycle).

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

I still don't get how the portrait is anti semitic. They looked like gilded age guys, none of them obviously Jewish. Such a silly controversy.

Do you believe there's any way anti-semitism can come from a left-wing perspective?

[Horus]

I still don't get how the portrait is anti semitic. They looked like gilded age guys, none of them obviously Jewish. Such a silly controversy.

Do you believe there's any way anti-semitism can come from a left-wing perspective?

Sure it can, Cynthia McKinney is one example. It's just very uncommon.

[Blair]

Parochial one of those articles is pretty shaky at best...

Amber Rudd being joined at a campaign event by some PPE oxford Tory who did a Nazi salute is not at all similar to the institutional antisemitism which is bubbling away at certain levels of the te left, (actually iirc lead to the Labour Oxford university club getting suspended.)

Ofc there's incidents in all parties; but there's a clear difference between isolated, and stupid incidents such as the one's you linked to, and Labour's entire cluster in dealing with the issue.

Let's not forgot that as far back as 2016 the leadership essentially held a sham inquiry into it, and then gave the author a peerage, and invited her into the Shadow Cabinet. It's actions like that, frankly which are much more concerning than stupid comments by an activist.

[EPG]

Labour's problem

Definitely Labour's problem

Of course not Labour's problem, but why get vicarious hurt feelings when the vast majority of the Labour P.P. also recognises this as a problem? The cause of vicariously supporting other country's ideological leaders is a fun one, but not one ultimately worth defending anti-Semitic art for.

If there is a difference, I suppose it is that the Leader of the UK Labour Party supported a mural depicting an international conspiracy of big-nosed men with stacks of money propped up on the backs of humanity, rather than standing beside a man who did a Nazi salute. If the leader of the Conservative Party also supported anti-Semitic art, the Conservatives would also be widely perceived as having a problem, I think.

See, I actually do think that there are issues with antisemitism within the Labour party that it needs to address. What frustrates me is that the UK media seem to have only just discovered that anti-semitism is a problem since Corbyn became leader of the Labour party; and this is even after 5 years of not too subtle dog whistling about Ed Milliband.

As David pointed out earlier, there is a nasty level of anti-semitism that exists within the British middle class across the political spectrum; but it has seemingly only become relevant as a stick to beat the Labour party with (which in turns fuels more paranoia and resentment of the media among Corbyn supporters, and so on a so forth in a continuous cycle).

Any party leader will be scrutinised, let alone a PM candidate. Tim Farron elicited questions about evangelical attitudes to homosexuality; Cameron got it for Oxford dining clubs. That's part of the price for seeking power over 60 million people.

The most obvious recent comparison is the Austrian student fraternities. Maybe Austrians should have been more vocal about those bad Burschenschaften before, but it becomes more salient when a leading politician seeks to govern you, because the bad people move into a position where they can use public money and laws to worsen social problems. And media mainly report new things ("news") - they don't tend to report stories like "continuing low level of anti-Semitic sentiment among some".

I must say I don't think anti-Semitism in the UK is skewed among high earners - check out certain Premier League fixtures involving Spurs - nor is the problem especially bad relative to nearby countries like France.

[Silent Hunter]

That's like comparing measles with smallpox.