Why can't conservatives debate without making ridiculous strawmen of their
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  Why can't conservatives debate without making ridiculous strawmen of their
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Author Topic: Why can't conservatives debate without making ridiculous strawmen of their  (Read 667 times)
Beet
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« on: April 07, 2017, 06:16:02 PM »

opponents' positions?

"Pro-abortion" lol no one is pro-abortion, that would be like some PRC forced abortions sh**t, no one advocates that here. Most people are pro-choice.

"Open borders" wtf does that even mean? A border means a demarcation, all borders are technically open except for the DMZ in Korea and a few other places. If they mean no borders, then no one advocates that. Insane position. What we advocate is not throwing out people who have built up lives here and aren't hurting anyone.

"start ww3 with russia/hyperventilating/hysteria, etc." Ironically this is complete projection. It's the ones who think ww3 will start over an airstrike that are being hysterical. FTR none of us supports war with Russia but that shouldnt even need to be said.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2017, 06:22:34 PM »

Not to be a moderate hero, but this rhetorical "strategy" is hardly confined to the political right.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2017, 06:39:41 PM »


     I suspect it is also perfectly intentional.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2017, 06:48:03 PM »


     I suspect it is also perfectly intentional.
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Lexii, harbinger of chaos and sexual anarchy
Alex
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« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2017, 07:03:38 PM »

Not to be a moderate hero, but this rhetorical "strategy" is hardly confined to the political right.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2017, 07:28:37 PM »


Considering he's a DC resident who rails against California Democrats for "throwing away their vote", that seems likely.
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mencken
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« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2017, 08:40:47 PM »

opponents' positions?

"Pro-abortion" lol no one is pro-abortion, that would be like some PRC forced abortions sh**t, no one advocates that here. Most people are pro-choice.

It's not really pro-choice when most self-declared "pro-choice" advocates support having other people pay for that choice. Using terms like "pro-choice" (implying that the other side is advocating tyranny for its own sake, rather than out of concern for the unborn) and "pro-life" (implying that the other side supports infanticide for its own sake, rather than averting a worse situation for both mother and would-be child) makes the debate politically charged; phrasing as pro- and anti-abortion removes this ambiguity. (I am pro-abortion FTR).

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And what is the point of having laws governing who gets to cross that border if, after a certain number of years, violations of such laws are overlooked and violators are allowed higher priority than those in the legal process? If one essentially advocates squatter's rights for anybody in this country illegally long enough, is there any different in substance (or only degree) from the "border" between Holland and Belgium?

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And Gavrilo Princip did not intend to start WWI. Any attempt to needlessly provoke such a large country has to be viewed as having some risk to it, even if unlikely.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2017, 09:17:18 PM »

Beet has truly become a bottom-tier poster and the development has been really sad to witness.
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Beet
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« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2017, 11:30:58 PM »

Ah, someone who offers an actual argument, rather than just empty quotes, and personal attacks, a rarity these days! I suppose I owe your positions due respect.

It's not really pro-choice when most self-declared "pro-choice" advocates support having other people pay for that choice.

Aye, when the debate is over funding of abortion, perhaps those that argue in favor of such funding are taking a pro-abortion position, but that is not the main debate--the main debate is over the legality of abortion. In the latter context pro-choice is still more accurate. Personally, I would like to see as few abortions as possible, since women who abort are more likely to be aborting future Democrats. It is only their right to have it as a fall-back that I support. Safe, legal, and rare is the mantra.

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It is true that perhaps these terms pro-life and pro-choice are not the best. Although if we are to switch terms, I would argue pro-abortion rights and anti-abortion rights are the most accurate. But either pair is better than pro-abortion or anti-abortion. In any case, I am happy to address pro-lifers as whichever one of the three they prefer, as it ought to be the perogative of the person holding the viewpoint to define their own view; just as you describe yourself as pro-abortion. Since most people on our side would prefer pro-choice, that's the respectful designation. Pro-abortion is simply wrong for most of us. It's as simple as that.

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The difference is that not many people can get across the border and make a life over several years to begin with. And what is the point of having a law limiting the speed limit if, cars can just drive past it so long as other cars are doing the same, and get to their destination faster than cars that driving below it? Is there any difference between having no limit?

A man who has lived in this country for ten years, has his own business, has friends and family, removing him out to a different country would cause far more human pain and suffering--and for what? Who gains from his removal? That someone else can take his job? It would be easier just to create a new job. Jobs are not some fixed quantity that must be distributed among the people. It is the work itself creates wealth--a job is an opportunity to contribute, not a good to be distributed. This is the mistake of the deflationists during the Great Depression. They thought that they could increase their wealth by reducing their debts on paper, even if it resulted in fewer people working. Wrong! Not a zero sum game. As long as a person is working, they are contributing.

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Maybe not, but the war started because there were rulers and entire establishments at the time who thought the war acceptable, and the people looked forward to it, cheering it on. On the contrary, no one, not even John McCain or the most hawkish politician in Russia, has advocated starting a war, and there aren't any people I've seen in the American public who wants one, but we all know it would be a disaster. I'm more worried about a war in East Asia because there are actually some people who seem to be seriously considering it, than a war with Russia.
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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2017, 04:10:49 PM »

Both sides do it!!!!!
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136or142
Adam T
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« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2017, 10:37:42 PM »
« Edited: April 10, 2017, 10:58:31 PM by Adam T »

I think there are a number of issues here.

I think there are two kinds of strawmen arguments.

1.Because of this era of increasing polarization, people are essentially talking past each other, and that leads to misunderstandings of what the 'other side' is advocating.  It makes sense in those situations that those misunderstandings will lead to mischaracterization of arguments.

2.Deliberate strawmen arguments. I agree with Beet that the clear majority of the time, it's Republicans (conservatives) that engage in this.

The reason I believe that is because of the related situation of the use of emotional language for propaganda purposes seems to me to be clearly dominated by Republicans.  

The professor and linguist George Lakoff wrote about this in his book "Don't Think of an Elephant."
https://www.amazon.com/George-Lakoff/e/B000APCCII/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1

I don't know when this started but I know the most famous example of this was for the 1996 Congressional elections when Newt Gingrich advised Republican candidates on the terminology they should use in the campaign. I believe this memo was written with the advise of pollster and linguist Frank Luntz.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4443.htm

The most obvious examples of this today are the meaningless but emotionally charged names of various far right wing groups like the Congressional "Freedom Caucus" and the "Club for Growth."

Another example is that far right wing leaning libertarians have taken to referring to a low regulatory economy as 'economic freedom.'  

One group even publishes a ranking of nations by their 'economic freedom' which dimwitted journalists breathlessly report on as if this ranking were some valid metric.

It's interesting how frequently conservatives use the word 'freedom.'

Freedom's just another word to manipulate to mean whatever you want, I guess.

The final and most obvious example of this was the renaming of the inheritance tax as the 'death tax.'
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