Which of these states do you consider Southern?

[TDAS04]

?

[100% pro-life no matter what]

All but Delaware and Maryland.  Though, Missouri is kind of borderline.

[/]

How can Texas not be Southern?

[TDAS04]

How can Texas not be Southern?

I agree, but many Texans don't like being called anything but "Texan."  They like their distinctiveness.

[LLR]

Just WV and KY, unless you consider the Southwest as Southern.

For reference, the Census counts all but Missouri, the BEA counts only WV and KY.

If we're defining there to be only 4 regions though, I'd include WV, OK, and TX

[RI]

TX and OK

[Young Conservative]

To those who selected it: How is West Virginia southern?

[RINO Tom]

Just WV and KY, unless you consider the Southwest as Southern.

For reference, the Census counts all but Missouri, the BEA counts only WV and KY.

If we're defining there to be only 4 regions though, I'd include WV, OK, and TX

I'd largely agree with this.  Missouri, like Illinois, has culturally Southern parts ... but the states - and those areas - simply aren't in *The South*.  Similarly, NOVA might not be culturally Southern, but it's just simply the South, period.

[Bismarck]

To those who selected it: How is West Virginia southern?

By default. It fits better there than with the northeast and especially the Midwest.

[RINO Tom]

To those who selected it: How is West Virginia southern?

Because it's literally part of the South?

[Nyvin]

"Appalachia" really deserves it's own distinction from "The South".    The two really do have quite a few differences.

Missouri is kind of 50/50 between Midwest and South.

[Goldwater]

"Appalachia" really deserves it's own distinction from "The South".    The two really do have quite a few differences.

Where is the line between the two, though? Is Tennessee "Southern" or "Appalachian"? Should Pennsylvania be considered part of "Appalachia"?

[DPKdebator]

To those who selected it: How is West Virginia southern?

Because it's literally part of the South?

Around here at least, elementary school kids are taught West Virginia is Southern (called the Southeast), Missouri is Midwestern, Maryland and Delaware are Northeastern, and Oklahoma and Texas are part of a region called the Southwest:

[100% pro-life no matter what]

"Appalachia" really deserves it's own distinction from "The South".    The two really do have quite a few differences.

Where is the line between the two, though? Is Tennessee "Southern" or "Appalachian"? Should Pennsylvania be considered part of "Appalachia"?

If you use this distinction, the only state that would purely fit into Appalachia is West Virginia, but parts of Pennsylvania, Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, North Carolina, and Georgia would fit as well.  But, by the time you move far enough down the mountain chain to Tennessee (look at places like Knoxville and Chattanooga), the culture is much more Southern than Appalachian.  Plus, over two-thirds of Tennessee lies outside the Appalachian Mountains (even Knoxville isn't really high up at all).  Where I am in Middle Tennessee, it is pretty flat, and parts of West Tennessee have more in common with Mississippi than East Tennessee.

[Goldwater]

"Appalachia" really deserves it's own distinction from "The South".    The two really do have quite a few differences.

Where is the line between the two, though? Is Tennessee "Southern" or "Appalachian"? Should Pennsylvania be considered part of "Appalachia"?

If you use this distinction, the only state that would purely fit into Appalachia is West Virginia, but parts of Pennsylvania, Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, North Carolina, and Georgia would fit as well.  But, by the time you move far enough down the mountain chain to Tennessee (look at places like Knoxville and Chattanooga), the culture is much more Southern than Appalachian.  Plus, over two-thirds of Tennessee lies outside the Appalachian Mountains (even Knoxville isn't really high up at all).  Where I am in Middle Tennessee, it is pretty flat, and parts of West Tennessee have more in common with Mississippi than East Tennessee.

With this in mind, unless you are getting very specific with your divisions "Appalachia" should just be considered part of "The South", IMO.

[RINO Tom]

"Appalachia" really deserves it's own distinction from "The South".    The two really do have quite a few differences.

Where is the line between the two, though? Is Tennessee "Southern" or "Appalachian"? Should Pennsylvania be considered part of "Appalachia"?

If you use this distinction, the only state that would purely fit into Appalachia is West Virginia, but parts of Pennsylvania, Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, North Carolina, and Georgia would fit as well.  But, by the time you move far enough down the mountain chain to Tennessee (look at places like Knoxville and Chattanooga), the culture is much more Southern than Appalachian.  Plus, over two-thirds of Tennessee lies outside the Appalachian Mountains (even Knoxville isn't really high up at all).  Where I am in Middle Tennessee, it is pretty flat, and parts of West Tennessee have more in common with Mississippi than East Tennessee.

With this in mind, unless you are getting very specific with your divisions "Appalachia" should just be considered part of "The South", IMO.

Amen.  Do people think regions can't be diverse in and of themselves?  The South, for some reason, seems to get more of this attention than other areas.  Nobody denies that both Ohio and North Dakota are Midwestern, for example, though they are clearly not exactly the same culturally.  Regions, however you chose to define them, should be static (once they're defined), and it's perfectly fine if they encompass several different types of people.

[100% pro-life no matter what]

"Appalachia" really deserves it's own distinction from "The South".    The two really do have quite a few differences.

Where is the line between the two, though? Is Tennessee "Southern" or "Appalachian"? Should Pennsylvania be considered part of "Appalachia"?

If you use this distinction, the only state that would purely fit into Appalachia is West Virginia, but parts of Pennsylvania, Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, North Carolina, and Georgia would fit as well.  But, by the time you move far enough down the mountain chain to Tennessee (look at places like Knoxville and Chattanooga), the culture is much more Southern than Appalachian.  Plus, over two-thirds of Tennessee lies outside the Appalachian Mountains (even Knoxville isn't really high up at all).  Where I am in Middle Tennessee, it is pretty flat, and parts of West Tennessee have more in common with Mississippi than East Tennessee.

With this in mind, unless you are getting very specific with your divisions "Appalachia" should just be considered part of "The South", IMO.

I agree and would put West Virginia in the South, even though it's not a perfect fit.  The same applies for Virginia and Florida.

[TDAS04]

What does "West Virginia is literally in the South" mean?  Wheeling is literally in West Virginia because states have definite boundaries.  It's okay to debate the boundaries of regions such as "the South" or "the Midwest."

Sure, there are some somewhat official regional groupings used by government agencies for statistical purposes.  But the Census and the BEA have different definitions.  They can't both be correct, can they?  Or maybe neither is absolutely correct.  It doesn't make sense to use one to the end of discussion.  There is no governing body for "the South," whatever that is.  So it's okay to discuss what region a state fits into, or even to suggest one part of a state is different region from another part.  South Dakota is a Midwesterrn state overall, but I could say I'm in "the West" when I'm in the Black Hills.  Even though sometimes regional boundaries need to stop at state lines in certain situations, I am not wrong to say I'm in the West when I'm in Deadwood, and it's fine for people to have differing opinions on regional definitions.

[RINO Tom]

^ Of course.  Southern Illinois is *The South* in most senses of the word, but the fact is, it's in Illinois, which isn't part of the South.  I know that sounds ridiculous, and if I were making a county map of where "The South" is, I would include parts of several states, but I think if you are doing a map of which WHOLE states fit into the South, you would have to include WV, as most measures include it.

[muon2]

^ Of course.  Southern Illinois is *The South* in most senses of the word, but the fact is, it's in Illinois, which isn't part of the South.  I know that sounds ridiculous, and if I were making a county map of where "The South" is, I would include parts of several states, but I think if you are doing a map of which WHOLE states fit into the South, you would have to include WV, as most measures include it.

Here was my county level map of the South that I posted in 2013. It splits a number of states in the poll, but only KY and WV have a majority of their population in the South based on this division. MO has a majority of its counties in the region, but not a majority of its population since both KC and St Louis are outside it.

Only east TX is in this split of the South with DFW and San Antonio outside it. Houston is outside, too, but it is on the border and could go either way. Even if metro Houston is added it still would leave most of the state outside.

The last of my reworked states using the Nine Nations of North America are those in Dixie and the Islands. South Florida was part of the Caribbean-based Islands and not in Dixie, and I followed the division from the book. However, in the 30 years since publication one could make the case for central FL to go there, too. Even the Cajun area of south LA could move to the Islands, with a culture unlike most of Dixie as Garreau noted in the book.

Over all there is enough population for 13 states, but the need for some smaller states in other regions drop the number of states in these two nations to 12. Within Dixie the states follow the geography of the Appalachians and Coastal Plain. If there were an additional state it would likely be one that linked Charleston to Jacksonville, leaving central FL and the deep South.

States (and principal city) with 2010 populations in millions are:

Dixie
Chitimacha (New Orleans) 3.7
Caddo (Shreveport) 3.3
Osage (Little Rock) 4.7
Tunica (Memphis) 4.3
Chickasaw (Atlanta) 9.3
Shawnee (Nashville, Louisville) 6.8
Cherokee (Knoxville) 8.8
Powhatan (Virginia Beach) 7.5
Catawba (Charlotte) 7.0
Muskogee (Montgomery, Augusta) 9.1
Seminole (Jacksonville) 9.8

Islands
Colusa (Miami) 7.1

[TJ in Oregon]

I've always considered West Virginia to be part of the South because of its high fraction of Scotch-Irish ancestry, large Baptist population, and similarity to Kentucky and Tennessee. In many ways even Indiana has a lot of southern character to it, though it is still more Midwestern overall.

[Tartarus Sauce]

Kentucky, Oklahoma, Texas, and West Virginia.

It baffles me why the Census Bureau insists on continuing to categorize Maryland and Delaware as Southern.

[100% pro-life no matter what]

^ Of course.  Southern Illinois is *The South* in most senses of the word, but the fact is, it's in Illinois, which isn't part of the South.  I know that sounds ridiculous, and if I were making a county map of where "The South" is, I would include parts of several states, but I think if you are doing a map of which WHOLE states fit into the South, you would have to include WV, as most measures include it.

Here was my county level map of the South that I posted in 2013. It splits a number of states in the poll, but only KY and WV have a majority of their population in the South based on this division. MO has a majority of its counties in the region, but not a majority of its population since both KC and St Louis are outside it.

Only east TX is in this split of the South with DFW and San Antonio outside it. Houston is outside, too, but it is on the border and could go either way. Even if metro Houston is added it still would leave most of the state outside.

The last of my reworked states using the Nine Nations of North America are those in Dixie and the Islands. South Florida was part of the Caribbean-based Islands and not in Dixie, and I followed the division from the book. However, in the 30 years since publication one could make the case for central FL to go there, too. Even the Cajun area of south LA could move to the Islands, with a culture unlike most of Dixie as Garreau noted in the book.

Over all there is enough population for 13 states, but the need for some smaller states in other regions drop the number of states in these two nations to 12. Within Dixie the states follow the geography of the Appalachians and Coastal Plain. If there were an additional state it would likely be one that linked Charleston to Jacksonville, leaving central FL and the deep South.

States (and principal city) with 2010 populations in millions are:

Dixie
Chitimacha (New Orleans) 3.7
Caddo (Shreveport) 3.3
Osage (Little Rock) 4.7
Tunica (Memphis) 4.3
Chickasaw (Atlanta) 9.3
Shawnee (Nashville, Louisville) 6.8
Cherokee (Knoxville) 8.8
Powhatan (Virginia Beach) 7.5
Catawba (Charlotte) 7.0
Muskogee (Montgomery, Augusta) 9.1
Seminole (Jacksonville) 9.8

Islands
Colusa (Miami) 7.1

I would include the Dallas, Houston, Oklahoma City, St. Louis, and maybe Kansas City metro areas in the South.

[Tartarus Sauce]

I would include the Dallas, Houston, Oklahoma City, St. Louis, and maybe Kansas City metro areas in the South.

The first three I could definitely fathom arguments for, but St. Louis and Kansas City?

[muon2]

I would include the Dallas, Houston, Oklahoma City, St. Louis, and maybe Kansas City metro areas in the South.

The first three I could definitely fathom arguments for, but St. Louis and Kansas City?

I get to St Louis fairly often, and it's no more Southern than Indianapolis. Both feel a lot more like Chicago than Atlanta.

There's virtually no way one can consider KC to be anything other than a Great Plains city like Omaha. My family lives in KC and I know it pretty well. From my visits to OKC you could put it in the Plains category or link it with western cities like Denver, but I didn't find it to be Southern at all. I lived and worked in Dallas as recently as the late 1980's and unless it has changed a lot in 30 years I lump it with OKC as either a Plains or Western city, but not in the South.