Trump expected to sign EO targeting refugees on Wednesday

[Devout Centrist]

Excellent idea. Don't be like Europe. Stop Muslim immigration.

Just a shame it's on the basis of country instead of religion. Political correctness gone wild, sad!

I know. Judaism is a threat to our nation. Something must be done!

[ag]

Your exact words were "Stop Muslim immigration."  How well do you think it would fly here if someone said "Stop Jewish immigration?"  I doubt you would find that acceptable.

Yes. Stop Muslim immigration. Both in Europe and the U.S. Now. It destroys our countries.

If you said "stop Jewish immigration" I would disagree, but I wouldn't report it.

You've never faced real discrimination for your religion, have you?

He has. And he saw that those on the other side liked it. He wants to participate!

[ag]

Your exact words were "Stop Muslim immigration."  How well do you think it would fly here if someone said "Stop Jewish immigration?"  I doubt you would find that acceptable.

Yes. Stop Muslim immigration. Both in Europe and the U.S. Now. It destroys our countries.

If you said "stop Jewish immigration" I would disagree, but I wouldn't report it.

You've never faced real discrimination for your religion, have you?

You may not be aware of the every-day life situation of Jews in large parts of Europe, but sadly practicing Jews are more often than not victims of verbal or physical abuse.

Which make it so much more disgraceful when they want to join in.

[The_Doctor]

Once again, banning Muslim refugees here is terrible foreign policy. If there was an actual good reason to ban Muslim refugees from Syria I'd be all for it! I after all DO agree there is a war on Radical Islam and we need to win it.

BUT once again we need allies to win this war. We can't just go "OH BAD MOOSLIM, EVERYONE STAY AWAY!" This is a religion of 2.6 billion adherents. Billion, with a b. Now, what happens when you tell an entire faith they're bad people? They get radicalized. They join the people who share their faith or x characteristic. They become tribalistic. They get ticked off. They decide opposing you is now part of their identity and path to survival.

Unless you're willing to nuke Medina and Mecca, antagonizing an entire faith is stupid foreign policy.

So, we need Muslim allies to isolate and win the war on Radical Islam. So, when you turn away families who are fleeing the very radical Islamists we are trying to kill, defeat, whatever, you end up making them vastly less sympathetic to your cause and more willing to listen to crazy people who might be willing to strike a deal.

This is not constructive foreign policy. The few minor incidents that come from stupid idiots that exist in every population subgroup are vastly outweighed by the support of the vast majority of law abiding refugees who will do the following (1) communicate their gratitude to their Middle Eastern relatives (2) communicate that the Islamists are the real enemy, not the West 3) communicate that we need to all stand united.

This is why George W. Bush was careful to not isolate Muslims in the days after 9/11. So, in a nutshell, this is a retarded policy that will come back to bite us in the posterior.  

[Devout Centrist]

Once again, banning Muslim refugees here is terrible foreign policy. If there was an actual good reason to ban Muslim refugees from Syria I'd be all for it! I after all DO agree there is a war on Radical Islam and we need to win it.

BUT once again we need allies to win this war. We can't just go "OH BAD MOOSLIM, EVERYONE STAY AWAY!" This is a religion of 2.6 billion adherents. Billion, with a b. Now, what happens when you tell an entire faith they're bad people? They get radicalized. They join the people who share their faith or x characteristic. They become tribalistic. They get ticked off. They decide opposing you is now part of their identity and path to survival.

Unless you're willing to nuke Medina and Mecca, antagonizing an entire faith is stupid foreign policy.

So, we need Muslim allies to isolate and win the war on Radical Islam. So, when you turn away families who are fleeing the very radical Islamists we are trying to kill, defeat, whatever, you end up making them vastly less sympathetic to your cause and more willing to listen to crazy people who might be willing to strike a deal.

This is not constructive foreign policy. The few minor incidents that come from stupid idiots that exist in every population subgroup are vastly outweighed by the support of the vast majority of law abiding refugees who will do the following (1) communicate their gratitude to their Middle Eastern relatives (2) communicate that the Islamists are the real enemy, not the West 3) communicate that we need to all stand united.

This is why George W. Bush was careful to not isolate Muslims in the days after 9/11. So, in a nutshell, this is a retarded policy that will come back to bite us in the posterior.  

This is exactly the right message to send.

To wit, we also need to get a handle on Islamophobia. The term itself does have a valid application, but it frequently gets thrown out over any and all criticism of Islam.

Usually you can tel if someone's an Islamophobe if they're opposed to Islam and either:
1. A Fundamentalist in another faith
2. Consistently criticise Muslims immigrating to their countries over Saudi Arabia, Iran, and others. Typically these people don't care about women suffering under the patriarchal societies perpetuated by most of Islam and they jump right to worry about immigration.

Likewise, it's pretty obvious to know when someone's too soft on Islam:
1. Consistently deflecting blame for terror attacks
2. Support for "liberation movements" like Hamas. Also, dislike for Israel or referring to the State of Israel as an apartheid state.
3. Calling any and all criticism of Islam 'racism' or 'islamophobia'

[The_Doctor]

+1 Devout Centrist's remarks.

Fundamentally, I think the Right has lost its mind over Islamophobia. Bush 43 was actually fairly good on this issue and struck a balance between killing terrorists while respecting Muslims. In the subsequent decade, Republicans have just jettisoned that balance in favor of an indiscriminate brush to declare war on Islam, as if it was Japan 1941 writ large.

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

Your exact words were "Stop Muslim immigration."  How well do you think it would fly here if someone said "Stop Jewish immigration?"  I doubt you would find that acceptable.

Yes. Stop Muslim immigration. Both in Europe and the U.S. Now. It destroys our countries.

If you said "stop Jewish immigration" I would disagree, but I wouldn't report it.

You've never faced real discrimination for your religion, have you?

You may not be aware of the every-day life situation of Jews in large parts of Europe, but sadly practicing Jews are more often than not victims of verbal or physical abuse.

The way he talks reeks of the kind of insensitivity to bigoted statements like that that implies not getting what it feels like.

[ag]

Your exact words were "Stop Muslim immigration."  How well do you think it would fly here if someone said "Stop Jewish immigration?"  I doubt you would find that acceptable.

Yes. Stop Muslim immigration. Both in Europe and the U.S. Now. It destroys our countries.

If you said "stop Jewish immigration" I would disagree, but I wouldn't report it.

You've never faced real discrimination for your religion, have you?

You may not be aware of the every-day life situation of Jews in large parts of Europe, but sadly practicing Jews are more often than not victims of verbal or physical abuse.

The way he talks reeks of the kind of insensitivity to bigoted statements like that that implies not getting what it feels like.

He knows. He wants to feel how it is for the other side.

[RINO Tom]

+1 Devout Centrist's remarks.

Fundamentally, I think the Right has lost its mind over Islamophobia. Bush 43 was actually fairly good on this issue and struck a balance between killing terrorists while respecting Muslims. In the subsequent decade, Republicans have just jettisoned that balance in favor of an indiscriminate brush to declare war on Islam, as if it was Japan 1941 writ large.

The reason President Bush was good on this is because killing terrorists and respecting Muslims are the exact same thing.

[Devout Centrist]

+1 Devout Centrist's remarks.

Fundamentally, I think the Right has lost its mind over Islamophobia. Bush 43 was actually fairly good on this issue and struck a balance between killing terrorists while respecting Muslims. In the subsequent decade, Republicans have just jettisoned that balance in favor of an indiscriminate brush to declare war on Islam, as if it was Japan 1941 writ large.

Ironically, you could accuse Bush of perpetuating torture and starting a war on fake evidence, but not Islamophobia.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

The majority of Americans have wanted this all along.  And he's exempting religious minorities facing persecution, as your link says.  They are most in need.

Yeah this ain't gonna hurt his ratings......

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I'm old school when it comes to citizenship. Pick one. Dual citizenship is fine and dandy for children who haven't had the opportunity to decide, but adults should have figured out where there loyalties lie.  On an issue on which the interests of Israel and the Netherlands diverged, which would you support?  Based on everything you've posted here, you seem like an Israeli residing abroad in the Netherlands, at least in your heart if not your passport.

I'm Dutch and Jewish and I love both the Netherlands and Israel. It's nice to know that some racist in South Carolina thinks I have to choose, but in reality I don't. There is no contradiction between Dutch and Israeli interests. In Israel I'd vote for nationalists that without a doubt would support more nationalism in the Netherlands, in the Netherlands I vote for nationalists that wholeheartedly support Israeli nationalism. The contradiction isn't there. In the Netherlands I'll always remain a Jew. In Israel I'll always remain Dutch.

I hope for your sake that the interests of Israel and the Netherlands remain noncontradictory, but history is not on your side there. There are a multitude of examples of countries that had congruent interests that later diverged.  For that matter, history is replete with examples of people who thought they were advancing the interests of two countries while actually serving only one, or even none.

The only constant history shows is change, and he who plans on things staying the way they are will end up being disappointed.

[DavidB.]

I hope for your sake that the interests of Israel and the Netherlands remain noncontradictory, but history is not on your side there. There are a multitude of examples of countries that had congruent interests that later diverged.  For that matter, history is replete with examples of people who thought they were advancing the interests of two countries while actually serving only one, or even none.

The only constant history shows is change, and he who plans on things staying the way they are will end up being disappointed.

Please stop talking to me, dude. You are an uninteresting person, and well over half your comments directed at me are antisemitic, which is why I have you on ignore.  Since you're a moderator on this board I unfortunately have to see all your posts here, but communicating with you is not a pleasure at all and I try to minimize any contact with you. Thanks.

[Devout Centrist]

It is really funny how people from cities and neighborhoods where less than 1% are Muslims (Arizona? North Carolina? Mexico City?) are trying to school me about tolerance while I live in a big Western European city, specifically in an "inner city area" that is over 35% Muslim. I entertain good relations with Muslims in my neighborhood and respect many of their customs. However, as for Omegascarlet's question, in my life I have experienced discrimination both for being a Jew and for my sexuality, and the fact of the matter is that Muslim immigration hasn't exactly improved Jews' and LGBT people's position here in Europe. The security measures for my synagogue are insane and every other month there is another story of gay people being beaten up in Amsterdam, and the perpetrators' names seldom sound Dutch... wonder why Barcelona and Tel Aviv are now the gay capitals instead of Amsterdam? Sure, there absolutely are European antisemites and homophobes, but there would be a hell of a lot fewer problems if not for Muslim immigrants and their descendants. That's the truth and while Americans are often pretty naive on this issue, everybody here knows it. I do not support measures that are solely intended to make European Muslims' lives harder, which is not moral and will work counterproductively anyway, but let's please not repeat our mistake by letting even more of them in. It is in that light that I support Trump's executive order, and I don't care how unpopular that would make me among people on the other side of the world.

Europe's cultural integration leaves a lot to be desired. Between the left never willing to criticism Islam, overbearing welfare state, its anti-semitic past, and national identity that has a strong correlation to ethnicity, it's easy to see why Europe isn't great at absorbing immigrants.

That doesn't mean it's Europe's fault, but what it does mean is, the US can and should do better than Europe

[parochial boy]

I'm old school when it comes to citizenship. Pick one. Dual citizenship is fine and dandy for children who haven't had the opportunity to decide, but adults should have figured out where there loyalties lie.  On an issue on which the interests of Israel and the Netherlands diverged, which would you support?  Based on everything you've posted here, you seem like an Israeli residing abroad in the Netherlands, at least in your heart if not your passport.

I'm Dutch and Jewish and I love both the Netherlands and Israel. It's nice to know that some racist in South Carolina thinks I have to choose, but in reality I don't. There is no contradiction between Dutch and Israeli interests. In Israel I'd vote for nationalists that without a doubt would support more nationalism in the Netherlands, in the Netherlands I vote for nationalists that wholeheartedly support Israeli nationalism. The contradiction isn't there. In the Netherlands I'll always remain a Jew. In Israel I'll always remain Dutch.

I hope for your sake that the interests of Israel and the Netherlands remain noncontradictory, but history is not on your side there. There are a multitude of examples of countries that had congruent interests that later diverged.  For that matter, history is replete with examples of people who thought they were advancing the interests of two countries while actually serving only one, or even none.

The only constant history shows is change, and he who plans on things staying the way they are will end up being disappointed.

I think David's comment about Muslim immigration was disgusting, but I have to disagree here. You don't get to decide whether or not someone can have multiple national identities. There is absolutely no contradiction in feeling connected to two or more countries, and it is a nasty xenophobic trope to suggest that it is.

[Santander]

Hopefully the "temporary" language is just there for political correctness.

[publicunofficial]

The nice thing about Trump's policies is that they've exposed that really, deep down, all Republicans are just as much a PoS as their leader. No reason to treat them with any decency, you're all worse than I thought.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Your loss. While I often disagree with you, I do find your viewpoint interesting. The only thing I particularly dislike about you is you treating every criticism of Israel as stemming from anti-Semitism.

[Mr. Reactionary]

The nice thing about Trump's policies is that they've exposed that really, deep down, all Republicans are just as much a PoS as their leader. No reason to treat them with any decency, you're all worse than I thought.

Lol. Stereotyping? What's that?

[publicunofficial]

The nice thing about Trump's policies is that they've exposed that really, deep down, all Republicans are just as much a PoS as their leader. No reason to treat them with any decency, you're all worse than I thought.

Lol. Stereotyping? What's that?

Forgive me if I stereotype a little, seeing as how stereotypes are now how we decide policy in trump's America.
And my new policy is: If everyone on the right dropped dead tomorrow the rest of the world would be better off. I reaaaaaally don't care if I get banned for saying that.

[Mr. Reactionary]

The nice thing about Trump's policies is that they've exposed that really, deep down, all Republicans are just as much a PoS as their leader. No reason to treat them with any decency, you're all worse than I thought.

Lol. Stereotyping? What's that?

Forgive me if I stereotype a little, seeing as how stereotypes are now how we decide policy in trump's America.
And my new policy is: If everyone on the right dropped dead tomorrow the rest of the world would be better off. I reaaaaaally don't care if I get banned for saying that.

I would. Your comments are great at generating sympathy for conservatives. Dont leave us.

[publicunofficial]

The nice thing about Trump's policies is that they've exposed that really, deep down, all Republicans are just as much a PoS as their leader. No reason to treat them with any decency, you're all worse than I thought.

Lol. Stereotyping? What's that?

Forgive me if I stereotype a little, seeing as how stereotypes are now how we decide policy in trump's America.
And my new policy is: If everyone on the right dropped dead tomorrow the rest of the world would be better off. I reaaaaaally don't care if I get banned for saying that.

I would. Your comments are great at generating sympathy for conservatives. Dont leave us.

Anyone dumb enough to have any sympathy for the right deserves what's coming to them.

[DavidB.]

And my new policy is: If everyone on the right dropped dead tomorrow the rest of the world would be better off. I reaaaaaally don't care if I get banned for saying that.

Time for a chill pill?

[publicunofficial]

And my new policy is: If everyone on the right dropped dead tomorrow the rest of the world would be better off. I reaaaaaally don't care if I get banned for saying that.

Time for a chill pill?

No need. Feels good to get off my chest.

[ag]

And my new policy is: If everyone on the right dropped dead tomorrow the rest of the world would be better off. I reaaaaaally don't care if I get banned for saying that.

Time for a chill pill?

No need. Feels good to get off my chest.

It is not the left-right, in the usual sense. Remember, Trump has been, in part, elected by the traditional "left" voters. I, as a conservative liberal, on the other hand, have never considered myself part of the "left" in any meaningful sense. It is the liberal vs. illiberal. And while I would not them to "fall dead", of course (even though their behavior is likely to kill me), I do come to the view that we are dealing with sworn enemies now.