Hitler or Stalin: Who Was Worse

[PBrunsel]

Both killed millions. Both are universaly dispised. The United States fough with Stalin in WWII, but FDR did not like it. Who was worse, tough question.

[Ali]

Stalin. Killed more people, tried to exterminate not only Jews but Christians as well, and his reforms meant nothing. At least Hitler revived the German economy

[The Dowager Mod]

Stalin killed many more people.
hard to choose one.

[PBrunsel]

Stalin killed many more people.
hard to choose one.

I know. I wanted to post this to see some historians debate. I asked this in history class once, and eveyone said Hitler. I asked them why and they said, "Because he killed the Jews." I told them Stalin killed Jews and Christians, They didn;t listen and went on saying Hitler was the evilest man ever.

[The Dowager Mod]

stalin had better press.

[PBrunsel]

stalin had better press.

Yes. He was our ally.

[The Dowager Mod]

if churchill had been listened to stalin might have been stopped before he died.
roosevelt was too weak at the end.

[PBrunsel]

if churchill had been listened to stalin might have been stopped before he died.
roosevelt was too weak at the end.

Yes. Roosevelt gave into Stalin at Yalta.

[Lunar]

I remember reading a while back a description of Stalin's agricultural policy.  Only 30 million dead.  Not bad for agriculture, eh?

Voted Stalin.  What did he kill in total, 100 mill?

[PBrunsel]

I remember reading a while back a description of Stalin's agricultural policy.  Only 30 million dead.  Not bad for agriculture, eh?

Voted Stalin.  What did he kill in total, 100 mill?

Somewhere around there. Either way it is more tan the Holicaust.

[opebo]

Stalin.  Fascists and Communists are quite similar, but Communists are worse.

[Lunar]

Stalin.  Fascists and Communists are quite similar, but Communists are worse.

Stalinism isn't quite the same thing as communism.  North Korea is very different from Cuba.

[opebo]

Stalin.  Fascists and Communists are quite similar, but Communists are worse.

Stalinism isn't quite the same thing as communism.  North Korea is very different from Cuba.

Well, though Cuba is probably less bad than North Korea, I'm sure its still a horrible place to live.

[dazzleman]

Fascism and communism are the same thing.  The difference between the two is that while fascism presents itself as a nationalist philosophy bent on naked aggression, communism presents itself as an international force that intends to do good.

The internationalist facade of communism fooled a lot of people who should have known better.  Many educated elites fell for the communist propaganda and thought it the wave of the future, and it is these people who have rewritten history to edit out their immense blunder.  Liberal elites have emphasized the brutality of Hitler (which was considerable) while downplaying similar behavior by Stalin.

But the end result of both philosophies, communism and fascism, is the same.  Military aggression in foreign nations and brutal repression at home.

I daresay that until well into the war, life was probably better for the average German under Hitler than it was for the average Russian/Soviet under Stalin.  But it really doesn't matter when you consider the sheer numbers of people that each of these monsters effectively killed.

[Middle-aged Europe]

At least Hitler revived the German economy

One could argue that Stalin turned Russia from a mainly agrarian society into a modern industrial country. Saddam Hussein did a lot for women rights and Ataturk slaughtered over a million Armenians, but pulled Turkey into the 20th century. So what?

And btw, Hitler didn´t just kill jews, but gypsies, other religious minorities such as Jehovah´s witnesses, homosexuals, handicapped people, communists and/or socialists, other political opponents, prisoners of war as well as large ammounts of civilians in occupied countries (mainly in eastern europe, where the "inferior races" lived). Besides, he was responsible for the bloodiest war in human history. It´s not just "oh, he killed only a few million jews".

Regarding the question who´s worse, Hitler or Stalin (or Mao?), check out this interesting site: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/tyrants.htm

It all depends on the way you´re counting and what sources you´re using. Usually, most right-wingers want Stalin to be worse than Hitler, while most left-wingers are doing the opposite.

For Hitler´s death toll, check out: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#Hitler

For Stalin´s death toll, check out:
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#Stalin

Anyway, because I consider myself a left-winger, I voted for Hitler.  But from a objective perspective, it really doesn´t matter who´s "worse".

[Gustaf]

I would say that fascism and communism are not all that similar. Fascists are more pro-market for instance. They are equally ruthless though. It is also possible that Fascists are generally more socially conservative.

Hitler and Stalin were both sufficiently bad that's it's hard to compare them.

Dazzleman, you mention standard of living. However, Germany was much more indusrtialized, so that goes a long way to explain it, no?

[dazzleman]

I would say that fascism and communism are not all that similar. Fascists are more pro-market for instance. They are equally ruthless though. It is also possible that Fascists are generally more socially conservative.

Hitler and Stalin were both sufficiently bad that's it's hard to compare them.

Dazzleman, you mention standard of living. However, Germany was much more indusrtialized, so that goes a long way to explain it, no?

Yes, it probably does.  But I would say that communist economic policies actively destroy economic potential, and East vs. West Germany is a good example of that.

There are differences between Hitler and Stalin, but in the end, they don't matter much.  Stalin was probably worse overall to his own people, while Hitler had this idea that non-Jewish Germans should be privileged.  However, Stalin behaved with much less recklessness in his aggression.  Stalin wished to avoid a war for which he knew he was not prepared, and during the Cold War he never launched generalized aggression against the west.

So while there were differences between the two men, the end result was the same - millions dead for no good reason, and the infliction of mindless cruelty on millions and millions who did live.  I don't think either man, or the philosophies that they represented, can be defended.

[??????????]

Stalin by and far. And shame on the world community for being hypocritical and going after Hitlers cronies and doing absolutely nothing to stop Stalins crimes. Here is a fact:

90% of Russians came out of German POW camps.
90% of Germans NEVER returned from Russian camps.

[Gustaf]

Stalin by and far. And shame on the world community for being hypocritical and going after Hitlers cronies and doing absolutely nothing to stop Stalins crimes. Here is a fact:

90% of Russians came out of German POW camps.
90% of Germans NEVER returned from Russian camps.

One side won and one side lost. And you forgot the fact that most Russian veterans were sent to Siberia, b/c they had been allowed to see the wonders of a bombed and war-plauged Germany and could not be allowed to spread the word to their fellow citizens...

Dazzleman,

'you would say'... I don't think anyone, at least certianly not me, will argue the point on what Communist rule does to the economy. Whether Hitler's sort-of-socialist economic policy was sustainable is doubtful, but I have to agree that it was probably somewhat better.

[ShapeShifter]

Josef Stalin

Only reason why people would vote for Hitler is because they lack information when it comes to Stalin or are Jewish themselves and are bias.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Josef Stalin

Only reason why people would vote for Hitler is because they lack information when it comes to Stalin...

I guess my five semesters in contemporary history were totally useless. Damn!

Well, okay, the reason why I voted for Hitler had a at least partially ironic or even sarcastic background.

or are Jewish themselves

Either that or a gypsy, or gay, or handicapped, or a Jehovah´s witness, or a communist, or a Pole, or a Czech etc. Why are people so obsessed with the Jews here? Okay, it was one of the biggest victims groups of Hitler´s regime, but is the life of a Jew more worth than of a gypsy?

Anyway, would you say that people who name Stalin as the worst are Russians? Are you a Russian?  Because you claimed, that people who see Hitler as worse are probably Jewish.

...and are bias.

Granted, people who say that Hitler was worse are clearly biased against Hitler, but are people who say that Stalin was worse not biased against Stalin then?


What I´m trying to say is, that is a bit cynical to say "well, Hitler killed only a few millions Jews and by the way, his economic policy was not as bad either". You can´t say "dictator A was the worst dictator ever, because he killed a number of X million people and dictator B is therefore the lesser evil because he only killed a number of X minus 1 million people. Besides, dictator B only slaughtered obscure minorites." Hitler was surely as mad as Stalin. And if Stalin killed 20 million people and Hitler "only" 15 or if Hitler killed 34 million and Stalin 20 million really doesn´t matter. They were both assholes.

I think people are so pissed about Stalin here because a) he was allied with the United States and b) he GOT AWAY with his crimes in the end, while Hitler was a) fought with all means and b) he got what he deserved. But if you ignore these "minor" facts for a moment, they´re both equal.

[Kodratos]

Josef Stalin

Only reason why people would vote for Hitler is because they lack information when it comes to Stalin...

I guess my five semesters in contemporary history were totally useless. Damn!

Well, okay, the reason why I voted for Hitler had a at least partially ironic or even sarcastic background.

or are Jewish themselves

Either that or a gypsy, or gay, or handicapped, or a Jehovah´s witness, or a communist, or a Pole, or a Czech etc. Why are people so obsessed with the Jews here? Okay, it was one of the biggest victims groups of Hitler´s regime, but is the life of a Jew more worth than of a gypsy?

No. It's the fact that Jews were singled out for being Jews. The others were singled out for other reasons: Gypsies(bums), Communists(enemies of the state), Gays(Hitler was himself bi, yes he had homosexual relationships while in the army, and was ashamed of himself), Poles(they were in his path), Jehovahs Witnesses(thier religion does not allow them to join the army or pledge allegance to a government). Czechs were not really persecuted, just occupied. Those other than Jews were not set up for EXTERMINATION for NO apparent reason. It is still a huge mystery to most people why he picked on them. People lose sleep over it.

[??????????]

Though I do disagree with Hitler on almost every single issue he preached I do think he helped the economy of Germany revive from the Depression. I think the whole war could have been largely avoided if the French hadn't been so pushy on the Germans demanding so much money that it bankrupt Germany. Also the French actions in the Rhineland were absolutely dispicable. The Treaty of Versaille is exactly the reason that WW2 happened.

[dunn]

Josef Stalin

Only reason why people would vote for Hitler is because they lack information when it comes to Stalin...

I guess my five semesters in contemporary history were totally useless. Damn!

Well, okay, the reason why I voted for Hitler had a at least partially ironic or even sarcastic background.

or are Jewish themselves

Either that or a gypsy, or gay, or handicapped, or a Jehovah´s witness, or a communist, or a Pole, or a Czech etc. Why are people so obsessed with the Jews here? Okay, it was one of the biggest victims groups of Hitler´s regime, but is the life of a Jew more worth than of a gypsy?

No. It's the fact that Jews were singled out for being Jews. The others were singled out for other reasons: Gypsies(bums), Communists(enemies of the state), Gays(Hitler was himself bi, yes he had homosexual relationships while in the army, and was ashamed of himself), Poles(they were in his path), Jehovahs Witnesses(thier religion does not allow them to join the army or pledge allegance to a government). Czechs were not really persecuted, just occupied. Those other than Jews were not set up for EXTERMINATION for NO apparent reason. It is still a huge mystery to most people why he picked on them. People lose sleep over it.

amen

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Hitler... the time scale is horrific... and he was only getting started...