Atlasian Civil Liberties Caucus (ACLC)

[Q]

Policy Chair Emsworth has submitted the following as a preliminary draft of the ACLC platform.  I'd like to commend him for his efforts.

I hereby open a comment period by the members.  Once all suggestions have been discussed, I will open a vote on whether to adopt this as our platform.

Please reply in this thread with any suggestions or comments.

Thank you.


Religion

Establishment of religion
The ACLC believes that the government must maintain the strict separation of church and state. We believe that the government should neither endorse nor inhibit religion. Instead, by maintaining a neutral, secular stance, the government can equally and impartially protect all religious views.

School prayer
The ACLC deems that students should be free to pray in schools if they so choose. However, we do not feel that the government should write prayers, or formally set aside time specifically for praying.

Pledge of Allegiance
The ACLC feels that the inclusion of the phrase "under God" in the pledge of allegiance is unwise and unconstitutional. We feel that it is inappropriate for the government to link one's allegiance to one's religious beliefs. Therefore, we support the removal of the phrase from the pledge.

Speech

Freedom of speech
The ACLC holds that the ability to express one's views without retaliation from the government is a hallmark of a free society. We believe that freedom of speech and of expression is vital, and that the government should not endeavor to hamper it. We feel that even the most controversial opinions are constitutionally protected, and should not be banned or restricted by the government.

Freedom of the press
We deem that a free press is vital in a republic such as Atlasia, as it serves to keep the government in check. Efforts to censor the media are contrary to the letter and the spirit of the Constitution. Therefore, the ACLC opposes governmental regulation of media content.

Freedom of assembly
The ACLC holds that the right to peacably assemble is an important one. We feel that no organization should be denied the right to protest simply because its opinions differ from those of a majority of the society. Furthermore, we oppose "free speech zones," which violate the right to assemble peacably.


Reproductive rights

Contraception and abortion
The ACLC supports the right of a woman to use contraception and to procure an abortion. We feel that the government should not attempt to impose its moral values on the People by banning contraceptives or abortions; instead, the decision should be left to the woman.

Sexual freedom
The ACLC believes that the state does not belong in the bedrooms of the People. We believe that the government should not prohibit sexual relations between consenting adults. Furthermore, we hold that the government should legalize prostitution.


Criminal Justice

Surveillance
The ACLC opposes any effort to turn Atlasia into a surveillance society. We feel that the government should use wiretaps and other surveillance tools only with a warrant issued upon probable cause. We feel that the arbitrary and capricious monitoring of law-abiding citizens is incompatible with a free and democratic society.

Enemy combatants
The ACLC opposes holding individuals as "enemy combatants." We feel that incarcerating such individuals without charge and without the effective assistance of counsel contravenes the Constitution and violates a fundamental principle of justice: "innocent until proven guilty."

Right to counsel
The ACLC holds that every defendant is entitled to the aid of counsel. If a defendant cannot afford a lawyer, the ACLC believes that the government should provide one for him or her. We believe that the police should not attempt to deny a suspect the aid of counsel by failing to issue the Miranda warning or by otherwise concealing the suspect's rights.

Death penalty
The ACLC opposes the death penalty in all cases.

[Speed of Sound]

maybe we should have something in about gun rights, since thats a very big issue.

[Speed of Sound]

I agree with LiberalPA: we need a plank supporting the Second Amendment.

now wait a minute....i dont think it should be in FULL support of the 2nd amendment. what i mean is it should support an assault weapon ban, but oppose any other ban (ex: a ban on handguns).

[Rob]

I fully oppose an assault weapons ban. For the ACLC to come out against assault weapons would be rankly hypocritical- we support some freedoms, but not others?

[KEmperor]

I disagree with the death penalty plank... other than that, it's solid. However, I agree with LiberalPA: we need a plank supporting the Second Amendment.

[KEmperor]

I agree with LiberalPA: we need a plank supporting the Second Amendment.

now wait a minute....i dont think it should be in FULL support of the 2nd amendment. what i mean is it should support an assault weapon ban, but oppose any other ban (ex: a ban on handguns).

That's silly.  You either support the right to bear arms, or you don't.  And since said right is clearly a "civil liberty" enshrined in our Constitution, we should support it.

[Everett]

It's late, but can I still join?

[Akno21]

It's late, but can I still join?

Yup. Welcome to the ACLC

[Speed of Sound]

I agree with LiberalPA: we need a plank supporting the Second Amendment.

now wait a minute....i dont think it should be in FULL support of the 2nd amendment. what i mean is it should support an assault weapon ban, but oppose any other ban (ex: a ban on handguns).

The ACLC cant support the death penalty either. Thats completely ridiculous.

That's silly.  You either support the right to bear arms, or you don't.  And since said right is clearly a "civil liberty" enshrined in our Constitution, we should support it.

[Ebowed]

Pledge of Allegiance
The ACLC feels that the inclusion of the phrase "under God" in the pledge of allegiance is unwise and unconstitutional. We feel that it is inappropriate for the government to link one's allegiance to one's religious beliefs. Therefore, we support the removal of the phrase from the pledge.

No, no, no.  Why are we focusing on "under God" but not the fact that it is a pledge of nationalism?  We shouldn't support changing the wording of the plank; what we should oppose is the mandatory recitation of it in schools and workplaces.

Contraception and abortion
The ACLC supports the right of a woman to use contraception and to procure an abortion. We feel that the government should not attempt to impose its moral values on the People by banning contraceptives or abortions; instead, the decision should be left to the woman.

I'm very troubled by the fact that contraception and abortion have been lumped together.  Contraception stops life from beginning; abortion stops life once it has already begun.  To group them in the same plank implies that they are the same thing.

The ACLC believes that the state does not belong in the bedrooms of the People. We believe that the government should not prohibit sexual relations between consenting adults.

So we support legalizing incest now?

Furthermore, we hold that the government should legalize prostitution.

If we support legalizing prostitution, we need to say more about it-- do we want regulations?  What age should you be to be able to participate in it?  Etc.

We feel that the government should use wiretaps and other surveillance tools only with a warrant issued upon probable cause. We feel that the arbitrary and capricious monitoring of law-abiding citizens is incompatible with a free and democratic society.

I'm not totally sure about the first sentence I quoted here.  You have to remember Bush considers looking out for terrorists a probable cause for searching civilian library records.  Anyway, using wiretaps and other surveillance tools is a huge invasion of privacy, even with some warrant.  We just stated we support all types of sex between consenting adults.  It seems like a bit of a contradiction to me.

The ACLC opposes holding individuals as "enemy combatants." We feel that incarcerating such individuals without charge and without the effective assistance of counsel contravenes the Constitution and violates a fundamental principle of justice: "innocent until proven guilty."

Good.

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Excellent.

I will post some new planks that I believe should be added in a moment.

[KEmperor]

I agree with LiberalPA: we need a plank supporting the Second Amendment.

now wait a minute....i dont think it should be in FULL support of the 2nd amendment. what i mean is it should support an assault weapon ban, but oppose any other ban (ex: a ban on handguns).

The ACLC cant support the death penalty either. Thats completely ridiculous.

That's silly.  You either support the right to bear arms, or you don't.  And since said right is clearly a "civil liberty" enshrined in our Constitution, we should support it.

How so?  Unrestricted civil liberties don't apply to convicted murderers.

[Speed of Sound]

I agree with LiberalPA: we need a plank supporting the Second Amendment.

now wait a minute....i dont think it should be in FULL support of the 2nd amendment. what i mean is it should support an assault weapon ban, but oppose any other ban (ex: a ban on handguns).

The ACLC cant support the death penalty either. Thats completely ridiculous.

That's silly.  You either support the right to bear arms, or you don't.  And since said right is clearly a "civil liberty" enshrined in our Constitution, we should support it.

As far as im concerned, there is no or very little difference in civil rights between me and a convicted murderer. We're both Atlasians.

How so?  Unrestricted civil liberties don't apply to convicted murderers.

[KEmperor]

I agree with LiberalPA: we need a plank supporting the Second Amendment.

now wait a minute....i dont think it should be in FULL support of the 2nd amendment. what i mean is it should support an assault weapon ban, but oppose any other ban (ex: a ban on handguns).

The ACLC cant support the death penalty either. Thats completely ridiculous.

That's silly.  You either support the right to bear arms, or you don't.  And since said right is clearly a "civil liberty" enshrined in our Constitution, we should support it.

As far as im concerned, there is no or very little difference in civil rights between me and a convicted murderer. We're both Atlasians.

How so?  Unrestricted civil liberties don't apply to convicted murderers.

So you support freeing all criminals currently in prison?  Incarceration by definition is an infringement upon a person's right to freedom.

[Speed of Sound]

I agree with LiberalPA: we need a plank supporting the Second Amendment.

now wait a minute....i dont think it should be in FULL support of the 2nd amendment. what i mean is it should support an assault weapon ban, but oppose any other ban (ex: a ban on handguns).

The ACLC cant support the death penalty either. Thats completely ridiculous.

That's silly.  You either support the right to bear arms, or you don't.  And since said right is clearly a "civil liberty" enshrined in our Constitution, we should support it.

As far as im concerned, there is no or very little difference in civil rights between me and a convicted murderer. We're both Atlasians.

How so?  Unrestricted civil liberties don't apply to convicted murderers.

So you support freeing all criminals currently in prison?  Incarceration by definition is an infringement upon a person's right to freedom.

Where does it say anywhere that we have the right to leave prison if we're convicted? If they did the crime, they should do the time. Keeping them out infringes on my rights to life, liberty, and happiness( and yes, i know thats not in the constitution)BUT they are American and still deserve the right to the freedom of speech, the freedom of religion and many others including the right to life

[Ebowed]

I don't have as much time as planned, but here are some issues that need to be addressed in the platform:

- Giving felons the right to vote
- The right to keep and bear arms, including assault weapons
- Legalization of gambling
- Legalization of fireworks
- Pornography
- Legalizing female toplessness in public

[KEmperor]

I agree with LiberalPA: we need a plank supporting the Second Amendment.

now wait a minute....i dont think it should be in FULL support of the 2nd amendment. what i mean is it should support an assault weapon ban, but oppose any other ban (ex: a ban on handguns).

The ACLC cant support the death penalty either. Thats completely ridiculous.

That's silly.  You either support the right to bear arms, or you don't.  And since said right is clearly a "civil liberty" enshrined in our Constitution, we should support it.

As far as im concerned, there is no or very little difference in civil rights between me and a convicted murderer. We're both Atlasians.

How so?  Unrestricted civil liberties don't apply to convicted murderers.

So you support freeing all criminals currently in prison?  Incarceration by definition is an infringement upon a person's right to freedom.

Where does it say anywhere that we have the right to leave prison if we're convicted? If they did the crime, they should do the time. Keeping them out infringes on my rights to life, liberty, and happiness( and yes, i know thats not in the constitution)BUT they are American and still deserve the right to the freedom of speech, the freedom of religion and many others including the right to life

So you are saying that people do NOT have the right to freely associate and travel within the country?  Because by locking up criminals, we are infringing on their right to do so. 

[Speed of Sound]

I agree with LiberalPA: we need a plank supporting the Second Amendment.

now wait a minute....i dont think it should be in FULL support of the 2nd amendment. what i mean is it should support an assault weapon ban, but oppose any other ban (ex: a ban on handguns).

The ACLC cant support the death penalty either. Thats completely ridiculous.

That's silly.  You either support the right to bear arms, or you don't.  And since said right is clearly a "civil liberty" enshrined in our Constitution, we should support it.

As far as im concerned, there is no or very little difference in civil rights between me and a convicted murderer. We're both Atlasians.

How so?  Unrestricted civil liberties don't apply to convicted murderers.

So you support freeing all criminals currently in prison?  Incarceration by definition is an infringement upon a person's right to freedom.

Where does it say anywhere that we have the right to leave prison if we're convicted? If they did the crime, they should do the time. Keeping them out infringes on my rights to life, liberty, and happiness( and yes, i know thats not in the constitution)BUT they are American and still deserve the right to the freedom of speech, the freedom of religion and many others including the right to life

So you are saying that people do NOT have the right to freely associate and travel within the country?  Because by locking up criminals, we are infringing on their right to do so. 

i did not say they should have EVERY right, but rights like the right to life should most certainly be thiers

[KEmperor]

I agree with LiberalPA: we need a plank supporting the Second Amendment.

now wait a minute....i dont think it should be in FULL support of the 2nd amendment. what i mean is it should support an assault weapon ban, but oppose any other ban (ex: a ban on handguns).

The ACLC cant support the death penalty either. Thats completely ridiculous.

That's silly.  You either support the right to bear arms, or you don't.  And since said right is clearly a "civil liberty" enshrined in our Constitution, we should support it.

As far as im concerned, there is no or very little difference in civil rights between me and a convicted murderer. We're both Atlasians.

How so?  Unrestricted civil liberties don't apply to convicted murderers.

So you support freeing all criminals currently in prison?  Incarceration by definition is an infringement upon a person's right to freedom.

Where does it say anywhere that we have the right to leave prison if we're convicted? If they did the crime, they should do the time. Keeping them out infringes on my rights to life, liberty, and happiness( and yes, i know thats not in the constitution)BUT they are American and still deserve the right to the freedom of speech, the freedom of religion and many others including the right to life

So you are saying that people do NOT have the right to freely associate and travel within the country?  Because by locking up criminals, we are infringing on their right to do so. 

i did not say they should have EVERY right, but rights like the right to life should most certainly be thiers

Ok, so you agree with me that a criminal forfeits CERTAIN rights when they violate the rights of others, and are punished by the removal of those rights.  Good.

Now, is it the job of our organization to be deciding on which rights those are?  I would say it's much more important to be defending the rights of law-abiding citizens, not criminals.

[Akno21]

I don't have as much time as planned, but here are some issues that need to be addressed in the platform:

- Giving felons the right to vote
- The right to keep and bear arms, including assault weapons
- Legalization of gambling
- Legalization of fireworks
- Pornography
- Legalizing female toplessness in public

I agree, these need to be in our platform.

[Akno21]

We also should have something showing our support for Gay Marriage, and only that, nothing less, and something on Affirmative Action, against it I would presume.

[Ebowed]

and something on Affirmative Action, against it I would presume.

Good call.  But before we add anything to the plank, I hope my problems with it are addressed (I had no idea that this caucus supported legalizing incest).  Of course, we need to be patient: Emsworth is the one who wrote this, and at the moment he's vacationing in Florida. 

[Emsworth]

No, no, no.  Why are we focusing on "under God" but not the fact that it is a pledge of nationalism?  We shouldn't support changing the wording of the plank; what we should oppose is the mandatory recitation of it in schools and workplaces.

That's fair enough.

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I would not mind separating the two; however, I do feel that the ACLC should firmly support the right to have an abortion.

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That part of the platform was (clearly) not very well-written. I would not mind making any changes you suggest

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That's fine; 18 would be an appropriate age.

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This applies to search and seizure in general. Clearly, we cannot reasonably oppose "searching" in all cases; if a warrant is issued on probable cause, that should be fine even for a civil liberties caucus.

I also agree that planks on the topics mentioned (guns included) should be added.

[Speed of Sound]

I agree with LiberalPA: we need a plank supporting the Second Amendment.

now wait a minute....i dont think it should be in FULL support of the 2nd amendment. what i mean is it should support an assault weapon ban, but oppose any other ban (ex: a ban on handguns).

The ACLC cant support the death penalty either. Thats completely ridiculous.

That's silly.  You either support the right to bear arms, or you don't.  And since said right is clearly a "civil liberty" enshrined in our Constitution, we should support it.

As far as im concerned, there is no or very little difference in civil rights between me and a convicted murderer. We're both Atlasians.

How so?  Unrestricted civil liberties don't apply to convicted murderers.

So you support freeing all criminals currently in prison?  Incarceration by definition is an infringement upon a person's right to freedom.

Where does it say anywhere that we have the right to leave prison if we're convicted? If they did the crime, they should do the time. Keeping them out infringes on my rights to life, liberty, and happiness( and yes, i know thats not in the constitution)BUT they are American and still deserve the right to the freedom of speech, the freedom of religion and many others including the right to life

So you are saying that people do NOT have the right to freely associate and travel within the country?  Because by locking up criminals, we are infringing on their right to do so. 

i did not say they should have EVERY right, but rights like the right to life should most certainly be thiers

Ok, so you agree with me that a criminal forfeits CERTAIN rights when they violate the rights of others, and are punished by the removal of those rights.  Good.

Now, is it the job of our organization to be deciding on which rights those are?  I would say it's much more important to be defending the rights of law-abiding citizens, not criminals.

absolutely. we may have to make a plank which taks about criminals rights.

[Q]

I hope my problems with it are addressed

All issues raised by the members will be addressed.  We are currently a small enough group that we have little room for division.  I think each component of the platform needs a strong degree of concensus among the membership in order to be included.

Ultimately, Emsworth will be the one to ensure that changes are made, but I think the easiest way for changes to be proposed will be for a member to re-word a particular section or to write a new one, as opposed to, say, just pointing out problems.  Of course, we need to know what the problems are, as each of you sees them, but more importantly we need alternate proposals for wording or regarding our stances on issues.

I'm really encouraged by the debate that's already occurred here.  Keep up the good work, guys!

[Rob]

We also should have something showing our support for Gay Marriage, and only that, nothing less, and something on Affirmative Action, against it I would presume.

We should support civil unions. Gay marriage should be decided by individual churches. Affirmative action should be opposed.