Why do you/don't you believe in God?

[MaC]

in part because I believe in a creator because there's more logic for it than against it.  Saint Thomas Aquinas offers 5 proofs to God's existence.  While they may not be proven facts, they are pretty convincing.

The most convincing one being the matter of causality.  Right now there is a causal relation going.  I am typing(cause), and people will read my post(effect).  Now let's backtrack.  I'm typing(effect) and someone created this computer(cause).  They created this computer(effect), by the COMPAQ company desiring a profit(cause).
Take this all the way back, and your first cause is God.  Since nothing caused his existence he is the uncaused causer.  If something did cause him to exist he would not be God.  Logically, there has to be a beginning to the causality relationship.  What would start an infinite set of causes if not a God?

Hope this helps, SJ and all you agnostics

[Emsworth]

The existance of God is the option where you have to make least assumptions.

Do you know how many unprovable conditions the Big Band theory assumes?

Not necessarily: one would have to assume that God existed, that he was all-powerful (or at least capable of creating a universe), that he chose to create the universe, that he actually did create the universe, and more.

Any assumption that can be made about the origin of God, can also be made about the origin of the universe. If the one always existed, why not the other?

[JohnFKennedy]

I think the two strongest arguments in favor of a lack of belief are based on Hume's dictum and Occam's razor.

Firstly, I accept that it is possible for a God to exist. However, I find no factual evidence to support the view that a supreme deity exists. Thus, I see no reason to arbitrarily assume that one does exist. (Hume's dictum.)

Secondly, the hypothesis that a divine entity exists is not necessary, I believe, to explain the universe. Therefore, once again, I see no reason to make an assumption that a divine being does exist. (Occam's razor.)

Secondly, the hypothesis that a divine entity exists is not necessary, I believe, to explain the universe. Therefore, once again, I see no reason to make an assumption that a divine being does exist. (Occam's razor.)

I suppose that this is where we'll have to agree to disagree.   Personally, I feel that a divine entity (or at least some form of creator) is necessary to explain the universe; thus, I believe in one.

My personal view on the creation is this: If one is to ask, what is the origin of the universe, then one could also ask, what is the origin of God? The two questions, I feel, are not unrelated.

If God just always existed, then (I feel) one might just save a step and say that the universe always existed. If the question of God's origin is unanswerable, then, I believe, the question of the unvierse's origin can also be said to be unanswerable.

Of course, that's just my view; yours also has its merits.

The existance of God is the option where you have to make least assumptions.

Do you know how many unprovable conditions the Big Band theory assumes?

Not necessarily: one would have to assume that God existed, that he was all-powerful (or at least capable of creating a universe), that he chose to create the universe, that he actually did create the universe, and more.

Any assumption that can be made about the origin of God, can also be made about the origin of the universe. If the one always existed, why not the other?

Well put, I agree with Emsworth on this.

[angus]

I've been struggling with my beliefs a bit lately.

I'd love to hear some opinions.

I had a long conversation with a priest about this sort of thing on the ocassion of my mother's requiem mass.  Or in planning it.  I explained that for me the religious experience had always been more academic than spiritual.  I could do the Apostle's Creed but it wasn't unlike memorizing "Stopping by the woods on a snowy evening" by Robert Frost.  Just good poetry.  And I could recite the highpoints of Jesus' life, but it wasn't unlike reciting the highpoints of Columbus' life.  "Do you believe in God?" he asks at one point.  And I go on to say that I'm fairly agnostic.  I can't be a good atheist or a good catholic, in that way.  Just not faithful like that.  He goes on to say, "Well, God believes in you.  and that's what's important son."  something like that.  He goes on to say that he understood the Big Bang theory, somewhat, and natural selection, somewhat, and found them to be entirely plausible theories, and not at all at odds with The Church.  That part stuck with me.  And I've never had problems separating, in my head, the mythological parts of religion with the important teaching lessons, but it was nice to hear that from a priest.  At some point, after I'd traveled around the world, gone to many different temples with many different gods, I've decided that I believe in all the gods.  I don't necessarily have a favorite, and I don't subject, worship, or pray.  Mostly because I'm just not turned that way.  I think there are no greater or lesser gods.  The Aztec story of Huitzilopochtli springing forth from his mother's womb fully armed, just like Athena in fact, is no less valid than the story of Moses parting the Red Sea.  All gods are the creations of the men that create them.  Their stories are wild, fantastic, and wonderful.  They should be read.  The suffering of Jesus and The Buddha should be understood.  Their legends read.  But more importantly, it is their lessons of life that should be learned!  Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, all are the same.  They all teach us of love, of humanity.  When to make Peace, and when to make war.  How to share.  How to teach.  These are the important things, not the incense, wine, or candles.  Not the kneeling.  Not the whispering and speaking in dead languages.  Those are symbols.  But the symbols are reminders.  Reminders that we are all connected with each other and with the universe.  We have only one world, and our time here is limited.  It would be a shame to waste any of it.  These are the important things.  And this is what, imho, the religions try to teach us.  Thus it doesn't matter whether you're polytheistic, monotheistic, atheistic, secular humanist, or simply a good old-fashioned agnostic.  Live well.  Love much.  Laugh often.  You will find your rewards every day.

[minionofmidas]

I'm not in the mood for that sort of discussion right now.
I do believe in the existence of a God, sort of at least. I'm no Christian, never could be.

[Jens]

I've been struggling with my beliefs a bit lately.

I'd love to hear some opinions.

I had a long conversation with a priest about this sort of thing on the ocassion of my mother's requiem mass.  Or in planning it.  I explained that for me the religious experience had always been more academic than spiritual.  I could do the Apostle's Creed but it wasn't unlike memorizing "Stopping by the woods on a snowy evening" by Robert Frost.  Just good poetry.  And I could recite the highpoints of Jesus' life, but it wasn't unlike reciting the highpoints of Columbus' life.  "Do you believe in God?" he asks at one point.  And I go on to say that I'm fairly agnostic.  I can't be a good atheist or a good catholic, in that way.  Just not faithful like that.  He goes on to say, "Well, God believes in you.  and that's what's important son."  something like that.  He goes on to say that he understood the Big Bang theory, somewhat, and natural selection, somewhat, and found them to be entirely plausible theories, and not at all at odds with The Church.  That part stuck with me.  And I've never had problems separating, in my head, the mythological parts of religion with the important teaching lessons, but it was nice to hear that from a priest.  At some point, after I'd traveled around the world, gone to many different temples with many different gods, I've decided that I believe in all the gods.  I don't necessarily have a favorite, and I don't subject, worship, or pray.  Mostly because I'm just not turned that way.  I think there are no greater or lesser gods.  The Aztec story of Huitzilopochtli springing forth from his mother's womb fully armed, just like Athena in fact, is no less valid than the story of Moses parting the Red Sea.  All gods are the creations of the men that create them.  Their stories are wild, fantastic, and wonderful.  They should be read.  The suffering of Jesus and The Buddha should be understood.  Their legends read.  But more importantly, it is their lessons of life that should be learned!  Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, all are the same.  They all teach us of love, of humanity.  When to make Peace, and when to make war.  How to share.  How to teach.  These are the important things, not the incense, wine, or candles.  Not the kneeling.  Not the whispering and speaking in dead languages.  Those are symbols.  But the symbols are reminders.  Reminders that we are all connected with each other and with the universe.  We have only one world, and our time here is limited.  It would be a shame to waste any of it.  These are the important things.  And this is what, imho, the religions try to teach us.  Thus it doesn't matter whether you're polytheistic, monotheistic, atheistic, secular humanist, or simply a good old-fashioned agnostic.  Live well.  Love much.  Laugh often.  You will find your rewards every day.

Well spoken, Angus. Truely well spoken

[WMS]

Yes. Partly for Gabu's reasons, partly for Nation's, and partly through some experiences I've had. While I don't know the exact parameters of the One, I do know that there is a 'One'. I chose to become a Christian because of my admiration for the teachings of Jesus, but that doesn't mean I hate followers of other faiths and in fact I think everyone is better off if they study them all. Especially the darn atheists.

[Brandon H]

I was born and raised a Catholic and have no reason not to believe in a God. If someone doesn't want to believe in God, then short of God speaking to them in a loud, voice, nothing can force them to believe. I have heard and read enough stories, some coming to me first hand, about things happening that would not be possible without God.

Here is an e-mail I got last week. No idea if this is a true event, but a good read none the less.

---

A young man who had been raised as an atheist was training to be an Olympic diver. The only religious influence in his life came from his outspoken Christian friend. The young diver never really paid much attention to his friend's sermons, but he heard them often.

One night the diver went to the indoor pool at the college he attended. The lights were  all off, but as the pool had big skylights and the moon was bright, there was plenty of light to practice by.

The young man climbed up to the highest  diving board and as he turned his back to  the pool on the edge of the board and extended his arms out, he saw his shadow on the wall. The shadow of his body, was in the shape  of a cross. The man felt a
strange feeling,like someone was speaking to him.  Instead of diving, he knelt down and finally asked God to come into his life. As the young man stood, a maintenance man walked in and turned the lights on. The pool had been drained for repairs.

[??????????]

Well to the agnostics/atheists..I hope you're not wrong!

[John Dibble]

Well to the agnostics/atheists..I hope you're not wrong!

Well, technically the agnostics can't be wrong - we just don't take a stance, lol.

[Storebought]

I was born and raised a Catholic and have no reason not to believe in a God. If someone doesn't want to believe in God, then short of God speaking to them in a loud, voice, nothing can force them to believe. I have heard and read enough stories, some coming to me first hand, about things happening that would not be possible without God.

Here is an e-mail I got last week. No idea if this is a true event, but a good read none the less.

---

A young man who had been raised as an atheist was training to be an Olympic diver. The only religious influence in his life came from his outspoken Christian friend. The young diver never really paid much attention to his friend's sermons, but he heard them often.

One night the diver went to the indoor pool at the college he attended. The lights were  all off, but as the pool had big skylights and the moon was bright, there was plenty of light to practice by.

The young man climbed up to the highest  diving board and as he turned his back to  the pool on the edge of the board and extended his arms out, he saw his shadow on the wall. The shadow of his body, was in the shape  of a cross. The man felt a
strange feeling,like someone was speaking to him.  Instead of diving, he knelt down and finally asked God to come into his life. As the young man stood, a maintenance man walked in and turned the lights on. The pool had been drained for repairs.

The local reverend back in BR had shared the exact same urban lege parable with me just before I moved out to TX.

To be truthful, I haven't sorted my thoughts on this completely through. But I can say with certainty that I am not an atheist, least of all in the arrogant and ridiculous RightWingNut/opebo sense.

[Gabu]

Well to the agnostics/atheists..I hope you're not wrong!

Don't get so cocky; there are dozens of religions out there that you don't subscribe to.  What if one of them turns out to be the correct one, and you get damned to hell for all eternity for believing in the false religion of Christianity?

[Joe Republic]

No, because I have more important things to worry about.  If other people want to believe in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy and God, then that's up to them.

[opebo]

Well to the agnostics/atheists..I hope you're not wrong!

Why?  Is 'god' going to lynch us?

[John Dibble]

Well to the agnostics/atheists..I hope you're not wrong!

Don't get so cocky; there are dozens of religions out there that you don't subscribe to.  What if one of them turns out to be the correct one, and you get damned to hell for all eternity for believing in the false religion of Christianity?

That's pretty much why I couldn't ever subscribe to any religion that stated you must be a part of it or go to hell - there's really no way for us mortals to know the truth in regards to the divine. So, thusly I feel any god who would send people to hell just for not worshipping him is evil.

[Gabu]

Well to the agnostics/atheists..I hope you're not wrong!

Don't get so cocky; there are dozens of religions out there that you don't subscribe to.  What if one of them turns out to be the correct one, and you get damned to hell for all eternity for believing in the false religion of Christianity?

That's pretty much why I couldn't ever subscribe to any religion that stated you must be a part of it or go to hell - there's really no way for us mortals to know the truth in regards to the divine. So, thusly I feel any god who would send people to hell just for not worshipping him is evil.

Yes, I would agree with you.  To people who tell me I must believe in X, Y, and Z in order to go to heaven, I always tell them that there are three options:

1. There is no god.  End of story, no problem, we just rot in the ground when we die.  It doesn't matter if we believe in X, Y, and Z.

2. There is a god, and he honestly could not care less whether or not you believe in X, Y, and Z; you can still go to heaven anyway.  Again, no problem; it still doesn't matter if we believe in X, Y, and Z.

3. There is a god, and he does care whether or not you believe in X, Y, and Z; you can only go to heaven if you do.  In this case, I wouldn't have wanted to worship such a cruel and elitist god anyway.  I refuse to sacrifice my scientific integrity purely for some selfish goal of reaching heaven that may or may not be attained through believing in X, Y, and Z.  If God wants us to blatantly ignore logic and simply believe something regardless of how much sense it makes to us, then, well, I guess I'm just not good enough for God, and it's unfortunate that he had to be weird enough to decide to create someone brought up in an environment in which that person would come not to believe in X, Y, and Z.

Either way, I'm not believing in X, Y, and Z unless I have a good reason to, and arguments making great use of the Appeal to Fear fallacy do not constitute good reasons to.

[Emsworth]

It is also possible that God would reward honest beliefs, rather than blind faith.

[Gabu]

It is also possible that God would reward honest beliefs, rather than blind faith.

Well, yes, but that would sort of fall under the second category: he'll reward them, but he doesn't really care about them, in that you could still go to heaven without holding those beliefs.

[John Dibble]

It is also possible that God would reward honest beliefs, rather than blind faith.

Usually this is in my signature, but not there because of fantasy politics requiring the room.

Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear. - Thomas Jefferson

[KEmperor]

There's no rational reason to.

[Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck]

I don't believe in any particular religions' image of God because I think it's incredibly stupid for any human being to think they know what God is and how it thinks.  I believe that we are people are just that and we should just try to be good to others and be decent people, and that if we are great things will come to us. 

The only thing that gives me any faith in Christianity particularly is that it has over a billion followers.  But knowing the nature of human beings, that little stat doesn't do much for me at all.  If I had to guess who was the closest to the truth, I'd say the Native Americans or the Jews.  IMO, the Muslims and Christians are just so full of it and their "religion" is more of just a mind-control scheme.  I find it sad that the word of a great man in history like Jesus has been turned into the most oppresive and destructive thing to even happen to human society, the Chirstian Church.  I consider myself alot more like Jesus than any Christian I know. 

[TheWildCard]

Personally, I believe in God mostly because the alternative would not make any sense to me.  Something had to have put us here, or else nothing would be here.*  The exact specifics - what God created, what formed together on its own, etc. - I obviously don't know, but it remains a fact for me that I cannot explain our existence without at some point bringing in the concept of some form of creator.  Thus, I believe in God.

Regarding which god it is - the Christian god, the Islamic god, the Hindu gods, or hell, even Zeus - I don't know.  I also think it's entirely irrelevant except as a piece of info, though.  I can't imagine why God would go to the trouble of creating us and giving us free will if he wanted us to rigidly and blindly believe a set of ideas or else we'd be damned to eternal suffering.  God would have to be some sort of sick sadist for that to be the case, in my mind.  Given that our life on Earth is not constant torment, I must come to the conclusion that God is not some sort of sick sadist, and thus, that you're not going to be damned to hell for believing in the "wrong" religion, and thus, that it doesn't really matter whether or not the specific bits are right or not - or, for that matter, whether or not you believe in God at all.

Basically, I believe in God because it makes sense to me, and because I can't see how things could be as they are without such a being.

Whoa... You are the first person I have run into who has the exact same theory as I do.

I also eqaute the creation of the universe to the falling of Dominos. If dominos begin to fall something had to have put them there and something must have started the process. Like you say the other one involves a messy little paradox but even then something had to have started the cycle.

I agree with you there is no reason not to believe in God. It is perfectly logical in my mind that one exists.