Opinion of the #BernieorBust movement

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

I went rambling on about this the other day. I'll requote:

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Simply put, it's stupid.

Hillary is terrible on basically every issue I care about. She's OK on abortion, I guess.

You must not care about any actual issues then

She's a hawk who wants endless wars. She supports a no fly zone where Russian planes are flying. She wants regime change against Assad while he's fighting Al Qaeda and ISIS. She voted for Kyl-Lieberman. She repeated all of the Bush administration talking points and voted against a diplomatic solution to Iraq.

She supports deporting child refugees. She supports expanding H-1Bs. She pressured other countries to frack. She's against $15 an hour minimum wage, except when she claims she was always for it. She lies. She was totally against gun control 8 years ago and is totally for it now.

She pushed for NAFTA, Panama trade, and called TPP the gold standard, but also at other times claimed to be against them.

She had top secret classified information on her server. The Clinton foundation took $10 million from Saudi Arabia and she approved selling them billion in  arms. She took lots of money from Wall Street, and opposes reinstating Glass Steagall. She supports the death penalty. She's open to entitlement reform. She supported DADT, DOMA, and didn't support SSM until 2013.  

I really could go on.

[Ebsy]

I mean, the one issue where Obama clearly ran to the right of Hillary Clinton in 2008 was gun control, and that mailer people always bring up is actually attacking Obama for not being consistently in favor of gun control. To say that Hillary Clinton hasn't been a consistent supporter of gun control measures is a fabrication.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

I mean, the one issue where Obama clearly ran to the right of Hillary Clinton in 2008 was gun control, and that mailer people always bring up is actually attacking Obama for not being consistently in favor of gun control. To say that Hillary Clinton hasn't been a consistent supporter of gun control measures is a fabrication.

LOL, Obama was to the left of the person he called Annie Oakley on gun control.

[IceSpear]

On the minimum wage, Hillary's website has always stated she was in favor of a $12 federal minimum wage, but supported local and state efforts to raise it higher when it made sense economically. That's exactly what she said in the debate. There was no contradiction or flip flop whatsoever.

[Landslide Lyndon]

I really could go on.

Or you could just give us a link to the RNC website.

[nicholas.slaydon]

Or how about Hillary says she will continue the Drone Program which 90% of the time "does not hit the intended target". She is in favor of arming "Moderate Sunni Rebels" in Syria, which have been hijacked by Jihadists and Islamists and don't even exist anymore (seeing as all of the moderates have fled to Turkey, Jordan and Europe). She is in favor of continuing Obamas HORRIBLE policy of cracking down on inoccent Whistleblowers. And on the issue of guns pretty much everybody is wrong, there should be no such thing as an individual owning a firearm, so both Hillary and Bernie are very wrong on that issue.

[Ebsy]

Or how about Hillary says she will continue the Drone Program which 90% of the time "does not hit the intended target". She is in favor of continuing Obamas HORRIBLE policy of cracking down on inoccent Whistleblowers. And on the issue of guns pretty much everybody is wrong, there should be no such thing as an individual owning a firearm, so both Hillary and Bernie are very wrong on that issue.

What's the point of quoting without attribution?

[nicholas.slaydon]

Or how about Hillary says she will continue the Drone Program which 90% of the time "does not hit the intended target". She is in favor of continuing Obamas HORRIBLE policy of cracking down on inoccent Whistleblowers. And on the issue of guns pretty much everybody is wrong, there should be no such thing as an individual owning a firearm, so both Hillary and Bernie are very wrong on that issue.

What's the point of quoting without attribution?

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/oct/15/90-of-people-killed-by-us-drone-strikes-in-afghani/

[nicholas.slaydon]

Or how about Hillary says she will continue the Drone Program which 90% of the time "does not hit the intended target". She is in favor of continuing Obamas HORRIBLE policy of cracking down on inoccent Whistleblowers. And on the issue of guns pretty much everybody is wrong, there should be no such thing as an individual owning a firearm, so both Hillary and Bernie are very wrong on that issue.

What's the point of quoting without attribution?

http://www.ibtimes.com/nearly-90-those-killed-us-drones-were-not-intended-targets-during-five-month-span-2142183

[IceSpear]

I really could go on.

Or you could just give us a link to the RNC website.

LOL, I didn't even notice the last paragraph. jfern has gone full Reince Priebus.

On TPP - Wasn't she "for this" when it was basically a bare bones framework? I mean, even I as a Hillary supporter can admit she probably is pandering to the left on this, but it's hard to frame it as a flip flop to be for something in theory but against it if it didn't go the way you expected/hoped.

As jfern very well knows, DADT was actually an improvement at the time, since before that there were active witch hunts to find and kick out gays. DOMA was supported by many Democrats, including progressive hero Paul Wellstone, to stop a constitutional amendment (spoiler: nobody liked gays in the 90s!) And didn't Saint Bernard say gay marriage was "too divisive" and that he preferred civil unions as late as 2006? Yes, it turns out he's a politician as well! What a revelation I'm sure that will be for you.

[Ebsy]

Leave it to a maroon avatar to link the Moony Times and IBD citing a report from The Intercept.

[nicholas.slaydon]

I really could go on.

Or you could just give us a link to the RNC website.

LOL, I didn't even notice the last paragraph. jfern has gone full Reince Priebus.

On TPP - Wasn't she "for this" when it was basically a bare bones framework? I mean, even I as a Hillary supporter can admit she probably is pandering to the left on this, but it's hard to frame it as a flip flop to be for something in theory but against it if it didn't go the way you expected/hoped.

As jfern very well knows, DADT was actually an improvement at the time, since before that there were active witch hunts to find and kick out gays. DOMA was supported by many Democrats, including progressive hero Paul Wellstone, to stop a constitutional amendment (spoiler: nobody liked gays in the 90s!) And didn't Saint Bernard say gay marriage was "too divisive" and that he preferred civil unions as late as 2006? Yes, it turns out he's a politician as well! What a revelation I'm sure that will be for you.

Oh wait aren't you admitting now that Hillary lobbied for the TPP as SOS without even knowing what was in it. Because we know from her emails that she lobbied for the TPP 45 times, and your saying she didnt even know what was in it till this year. So do you really want a president who will lobby for a trade deal without even knowing what is in it?

[nicholas.slaydon]

Leave it to a maroon avatar to link the Moony Times and IBD citing a report from The Intercept.

Have you even heard of the "Drone Papers" the largest government leak since Edward Snowden. The information is all there. Hillary hacks find it hard to argue against the factual substance of the arguments presented against them, so they resort to smearing the media, like the good Republicans they are.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

I really could go on.

Or you could just give us a link to the RNC website.

LOL, I didn't even notice the last paragraph. jfern has gone full Reince Priebus.

On TPP - Wasn't she "for this" when it was basically a bare bones framework? I mean, even I as a Hillary supporter can admit she probably is pandering to the left on this, but it's hard to frame it as a flip flop to be for something in theory but against it if it didn't go the way you expected/hoped.

As jfern very well knows, DADT was actually an improvement at the time, since before that there were active witch hunts to find and kick out gays. DOMA was supported by many Democrats, including progressive hero Paul Wellstone, to stop a constitutional amendment (spoiler: nobody liked gays in the 90s!) And didn't Saint Bernard say gay marriage was "too divisive" and that he preferred civil unions as late as 2006? Yes, it turns out he's a politician as well! What a revelation I'm sure that will be for you.

She called TPP the gold standard in 2014, and waited until Bernie was gaining a lot of support to come out against it. The US Chamber of Commerce President said not to worry though, she'll revert back to supporting it.

DADT was a stupid idea from the first time I heard of it. Almost half of Democrats (including Bernie) voted against it. They should have just let gays openly serve. No one was talking about a constitutional amendment in 1996. That was just some revisionism made up a year or 2 ago. Bill Clinton bragged about signing DOMA. Quite a number of Democrats voted against it, including a Senator from Nebraska. Bernie's 2006 comment was just that he didn't think the time was right for Vermont to legalize SSM. Remember Vermont got a lot of sh**t when they were the first state to legalize civil unions. Governor O'Malley waited 6 years to legalize SSM, but I never heard of anyone attacking him for that.

[Ebsy]

Leave it to a maroon avatar to link the Moony Times and IBD citing a report from The Intercept.

Have you even heard of the "Drone Papers" the largest government leak since Edward Snowden. The information is all there. Hillary hacks find it hard to argue against the factual substance of the arguments presented against them, so they resort to smearing the media, like the good Republicans they are.

I'm well aware of the drone papers and how they were very carefully selected to likely paint the worst possible picture due to Greenwald's pathological hatred of President Obama.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Some others I just remembered. She wants to backdoor your encryption so that hackers get your credit card information. She's for warrantless wiretaps. In the last debate she went totally Likud, and she did the same with her AIPAC speech. Her campaign chair is a Saudi lobbyist. She voted for the 2001 bankruptcy bill (Elizabeth Warren was really pissed about this). She claims that you can't have supported the auto bailout and opposed TARP. She supported the Honduras coup. The Clinton Foundation takes a lot of money from dictators, and some of it is through a Canadian non-profit so that they don't have to release donor information.  

[Ebsy]

Some others I just remembered. She wants to backdoor your encryption so that hackers get your credit card information. She's for warrantless wiretaps. In the last debate she went totally Likud, and she did the same with her AIPAC speech. Her campaign chair is a Saudi lobbyist. She voted for the 2001 bankruptcy bill (Elizabeth Warren was really pissed about this). She claims that you can't have supported the auto bailout and opposed TARP. She supported the Honduras coup. The Clinton Foundation takes a lot of money from dictators, and some of it is through a Canadian non-profit so that they don't have to release donor information.  

Are you capable of saying a single thing that is true or accurate?

[Admiral Kizaru]

A bunch of spoiled trust-fund kids and wacko lefties like Susan Sarandon and jfern.
It's because of people like these that liberal became a dirty word and the Democrats languished in the political wilderness for 40 years.

Pretty much.

It's slightly alarming and perhaps I was too young back in 08 to the fully appreciate the PUMA effort then which is why I'm more concerned this time around. Or maybe it's just because they have bigger social media platforms now so their voices seem louder.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Some others I just remembered. She wants to backdoor your encryption so that hackers get your credit card information. She's for warrantless wiretaps. In the last debate she went totally Likud, and she did the same with her AIPAC speech. Her campaign chair is a Saudi lobbyist. She voted for the 2001 bankruptcy bill (Elizabeth Warren was really pissed about this). She claims that you can't have supported the auto bailout and opposed TARP. She supported the Honduras coup. The Clinton Foundation takes a lot of money from dictators, and some of it is through a Canadian non-profit so that they don't have to release donor information.  

Are you capable of saying a single thing that is true or accurate?

What specifically do you think isn't true or accurate?

[nicholas.slaydon]

Some others I just remembered. She wants to backdoor your encryption so that hackers get your credit card information. She's for warrantless wiretaps. In the last debate she went totally Likud, and she did the same with her AIPAC speech. Her campaign chair is a Saudi lobbyist. She voted for the 2001 bankruptcy bill (Elizabeth Warren was really pissed about this). She claims that you can't have supported the auto bailout and opposed TARP. She supported the Honduras coup. The Clinton Foundation takes a lot of money from dictators, and some of it is through a Canadian non-profit so that they don't have to release donor information.  

Are you capable of saying a single thing that is true or accurate?

Hey, you have to admit she voted for the USA Patriot Act which allowed the NSA to rip the constitution to shreds. Bye, Bye 4th Amendment, And your right from unreasonable search and seizure. Bye, Bye 8th Amendment, and denying the right of government detainees from invoking the writ of Habeus Corpus and protection from arbitrary detainment and protection from cruel and unusual punishment.

[Landslide Lyndon]

Some others I just remembered. She wants to backdoor your encryption so that hackers get your credit card information. She's for warrantless wiretaps. In the last debate she went totally Likud, and she did the same with her AIPAC speech. Her campaign chair is a Saudi lobbyist. She voted for the 2001 bankruptcy bill (Elizabeth Warren was really pissed about this). She claims that you can't have supported the auto bailout and opposed TARP. She supported the Honduras coup. The Clinton Foundation takes a lot of money from dictators, and some of it is through a Canadian non-profit so that they don't have to release donor information.  

Are you capable of saying a single thing that is true or accurate?

What specifically do you think isn't true or accurate?

Everything?

[IceSpear]

I really could go on.

Or you could just give us a link to the RNC website.

LOL, I didn't even notice the last paragraph. jfern has gone full Reince Priebus.

On TPP - Wasn't she "for this" when it was basically a bare bones framework? I mean, even I as a Hillary supporter can admit she probably is pandering to the left on this, but it's hard to frame it as a flip flop to be for something in theory but against it if it didn't go the way you expected/hoped.

As jfern very well knows, DADT was actually an improvement at the time, since before that there were active witch hunts to find and kick out gays. DOMA was supported by many Democrats, including progressive hero Paul Wellstone, to stop a constitutional amendment (spoiler: nobody liked gays in the 90s!) And didn't Saint Bernard say gay marriage was "too divisive" and that he preferred civil unions as late as 2006? Yes, it turns out he's a politician as well! What a revelation I'm sure that will be for you.

She called TPP the gold standard in 2014, and waited until Bernie was gaining a lot of support to come out against it. The US Chamber of Commerce President said not to worry though, she'll revert back to supporting it.

DADT was a stupid idea from the first time I heard of it. Almost half of Democrats (including Bernie) voted against it. They should have just let gays openly serve. No one was talking about a constitutional amendment in 1996. That was just some revisionism made up a year or 2 ago. Bill Clinton bragged about signing DOMA. Quite a number of Democrats voted against it, including a Senator from Nebraska. Bernie's 2006 comment was just that he didn't think the time was right for Vermont to legalize SSM. Remember Vermont got a lot of sh**t when they were the first state to legalize civil unions. Governor O'Malley waited 6 years to legalize SSM, but I never heard of anyone attacking him for that.

Again, she never saw the final TPP agreement. Things change during the course of negotiations, you know. But like I said, I do agree she's probably pandering on it, so I'm not going to press the issue. That said, the left should be happy they managed to force her into pandering to them and try to continue that strategy rather than whine, cry, stamp your feet, and vote for Trump.

Obviously they should've let gays openly serve. In fact, that's exactly what the Clintons pushed for initially and what Bill ran on. But the Republicans and the Dixiecrats viciously opposed him. I know the left has trouble grasping the concept of Congress, but it does matter. At that point the choice was either to continue the status quo of gay witch hunts or go with DADT, which was obviously the lesser of two evils. And again we get to Congress. Bill opposed DOMA, but it passed with a veto proof majority. So he did what politicians do and got some credit for something that was inevitable no matter what he did. If there was no threat of an amendment, I guess Paul Wellstone must be a bigot then. I rarely see the internet leftists raking him over the coals though, he's as lionized as ever. "The time wasn't right"? That sounds very pragmatic and politiciany to me! I'm sure Vermont did get a lot of sh*t when they tried to legalize civil unions, but I doubt it compared to how much sh*t Bill got when he pushed for gays to serve openly in the military. As for why nobody ever attacked O'Malley, it's because he's always been irrelevant. Are you going to ask why nobody attacked De La Fuente too?

[Ebsy]

Some others I just remembered. She wants to backdoor your encryption so that hackers get your credit card information. She's for warrantless wiretaps. In the last debate she went totally Likud, and she did the same with her AIPAC speech. Her campaign chair is a Saudi lobbyist. She voted for the 2001 bankruptcy bill (Elizabeth Warren was really pissed about this). She claims that you can't have supported the auto bailout and opposed TARP. She supported the Honduras coup. The Clinton Foundation takes a lot of money from dictators, and some of it is through a Canadian non-profit so that they don't have to release donor information.  

Are you capable of saying a single thing that is true or accurate?

What specifically do you think isn't true or accurate?

Pretty much all of what you have said in this thread has little basis in reality or is a total distortion of Clinton's actual record. For instance, you cite the bankruptcy bill that Warren ranted about, but Clinton voted for it only after they included the protections for women and children Warren wanted in the bill, and said bill never even became law. When it came up again without the protections for women and children, Clinton voted against it.

On the Honduran coup, Clinton definitely did not support the coup, and I encourage you to read her explanation of her actions in her New York Daily News interview. She explains very clearly why the Obama administration decided not to call it a coup, as it was probably legal, and calling it a coup would have immediately cut off all aid to the Honduran people. Instead, the Obama administration negotiated for new elections which were held not too long after.

I could go on.

[Ebsy]

Some others I just remembered. She wants to backdoor your encryption so that hackers get your credit card information. She's for warrantless wiretaps. In the last debate she went totally Likud, and she did the same with her AIPAC speech. Her campaign chair is a Saudi lobbyist. She voted for the 2001 bankruptcy bill (Elizabeth Warren was really pissed about this). She claims that you can't have supported the auto bailout and opposed TARP. She supported the Honduras coup. The Clinton Foundation takes a lot of money from dictators, and some of it is through a Canadian non-profit so that they don't have to release donor information.  

Are you capable of saying a single thing that is true or accurate?

Hey, you have to admit she voted for the USA Patriot Act which allowed the NSA to rip the constitution to shreds. Bye, Bye 4th Amendment, And your right from unreasonable search and seizure. Bye, Bye 8th Amendment, and denying the right of government detainees from invoking the writ of Habeus Corpus and protection from arbitrary detainment and protection from cruel and unusual punishment.

Funnily enough, Clinton was a major critic of the Bush administration using warrantless wiretaps and voted not to authorize that section of the PATRIOT ACT in 2006.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

I really could go on.

Or you could just give us a link to the RNC website.

LOL, I didn't even notice the last paragraph. jfern has gone full Reince Priebus.

On TPP - Wasn't she "for this" when it was basically a bare bones framework? I mean, even I as a Hillary supporter can admit she probably is pandering to the left on this, but it's hard to frame it as a flip flop to be for something in theory but against it if it didn't go the way you expected/hoped.

As jfern very well knows, DADT was actually an improvement at the time, since before that there were active witch hunts to find and kick out gays. DOMA was supported by many Democrats, including progressive hero Paul Wellstone, to stop a constitutional amendment (spoiler: nobody liked gays in the 90s!) And didn't Saint Bernard say gay marriage was "too divisive" and that he preferred civil unions as late as 2006? Yes, it turns out he's a politician as well! What a revelation I'm sure that will be for you.

She called TPP the gold standard in 2014, and waited until Bernie was gaining a lot of support to come out against it. The US Chamber of Commerce President said not to worry though, she'll revert back to supporting it.

DADT was a stupid idea from the first time I heard of it. Almost half of Democrats (including Bernie) voted against it. They should have just let gays openly serve. No one was talking about a constitutional amendment in 1996. That was just some revisionism made up a year or 2 ago. Bill Clinton bragged about signing DOMA. Quite a number of Democrats voted against it, including a Senator from Nebraska. Bernie's 2006 comment was just that he didn't think the time was right for Vermont to legalize SSM. Remember Vermont got a lot of sh**t when they were the first state to legalize civil unions. Governor O'Malley waited 6 years to legalize SSM, but I never heard of anyone attacking him for that.

Again, she never saw the final TPP agreement. Things change during the course of negotiations, you know. But like I said, I do agree she's probably pandering on it, so I'm not going to press the issue. That said, the left should be happy they managed to force her into pandering to them and try to continue that strategy rather than whine, cry, stamp your feet, and vote for Trump.

Obviously they should've let gays openly serve. In fact, that's exactly what the Clintons pushed for initially and what Bill ran on. But the Republicans and the Dixiecrats viciously opposed him. I know the left has trouble grasping the concept of Congress, but it does matter. At that point the choice was either to continue the status quo of gay witch hunts or go with DADT, which was obviously the lesser of two evils. And again we get to Congress. Bill opposed DOMA, but it passed with a veto proof majority. So he did what politicians do and got some credit for something that was inevitable no matter what he did. If there was no threat of an amendment, I guess Paul Wellstone must be a bigot then. I rarely see the internet leftists raking him over the coals though, he's as lionized as ever. "The time wasn't right"? That sounds very pragmatic and politiciany to me! I'm sure Vermont did get a lot of sh*t when they tried to legalize civil unions, but I doubt it compared to how much sh*t Bill got when he pushed for gays to serve openly in the military. As for why nobody ever attacked O'Malley, it's because he's always been irrelevant. Are you going to ask why nobody attacked De La Fuente too?

Did TPP change drastically since she spoke positively of it in her 2014 book?

An executive order could have allowed gays to serve. Truman used one to desegregate the military. Speaking of Truman, he voted Taft-Hartley even though it had a veto proof majority because it was the right thing to do. And Clinton did push for DOMA. I'm sure the President could have scored some more nay votes from his own party if he had opposed it. No one said that Bernie wasn't a politician, he just was saying it might be better to wait a bit. It passed 3 years later, which was 4 years before Hillary support SSM.