Is leftism pro-Islam?

[patrick1]

Here's an excellent article on what you referred to, Patrick.

Good article Bob.  The devout mutliculturalistic attitude is to wring your hands and soul search when attacked.  This was seen after 9/11 when many were asking why they attacked the United States and what we had done to deserve this.  They make excuses for horrendous behavior- like poverty- when most of the hijackers were middle class and well educated.  

To answer Gabu's quote to my post:  Politics is an exercise in generalities.  I'm sorry but I don't have time to address everyone's particular worldview.  I am qctaully a rightist that sees China as a vital trading partner and a human rights abuser.  Excuse the forumite shorthand.  

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

No.  There are very few things that must come in the package of "being from the left", and one's opinion of Islam is not one of them.  Debate would be a lot more productive if we stopped telling other people what they believe and instead discussed what they actually believe.

tell that to dazzleman.

[Cubby]

No        I'm left but anti-Islam

Evangelical/Fundamentalist Christianity are almost as bad as Islam, except for the violence. However, mainline Protestant, Catholicism and all other religions are okay.

I agree with Samuel Huntington. I see Islam as a threat to the Western Way of Life.

[True Democrat]

Every religion has its extremists.  Look at Catholics during the Inquisition.  Islam has its extremists, but overall it is a peaceful religion.  Look how Malcolm X changed just by traveling to Mecca.

[Gabu]

No.  There are very few things that must come in the package of "being from the left", and one's opinion of Islam is not one of them.  Debate would be a lot more productive if we stopped telling other people what they believe and instead discussed what they actually believe.

tell that to dazzleman.

I have repeatedly done so in the past, actually.

[patrick1]

f**ck no. I can't believe there are still people here who think leftists are Islam-lovers when I get bashed by right wingers all the time for what I say about Islam-and it ain't positive! Who was it who supported arming the Muslim terrorist trash in Afghanistan? Not the left!

"Leftists", "Islam-lovers" "right-wingers" "Muslim terroist trash".... But I shall decry people for speaking in generalities.  Bullsh**t.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

What a strange question. First off what's a "leftist"? Secondly, whaddya mean by "pro-Islam"?

[minionofmidas]

Not really on topic, but didn't feel like starting one:
    09.06.2005   
 
  Court Upholds Acquittal of Terror Suspect   

 Germany’s Federal Appeals Court on Thursday upheld alower court's acquittal of Abdelghani Mzoudi, who was accused of involvement in the Sept. 11 attacks on the United States.
The German Federal Appeals Court in Karlsruhe upheld an earlier court decision to acquit the 32-year-old Moroccan student of all charges of aiding the Hamburg terror cell which launched the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks on New York and Washington.
Abdelghani Mzoudi was first brought to trial in 2003 on charges of aiding and abetting in the murder of more than 3,000 people. The trial collapsed and Mzoudi was later acquitted in a February 2004 appeals decision.
After more than five months on trial, the Higher Regional Court in Hamburg ruled there was insufficient proof to demonstrate Mzoudi's involvement in the Hamburg terror cell and association with a terror organization.
Federal prosecutors had called for a revision of the acquittal of only the second person brought to trial for complicity in the Sept. 11 terror attacks, but failed to demonstrate the necessity of a revision on Thursday.
The Karlsruhe court, the country's highest appeals court, rejected the call for a retrial, arguing that the initial ruling was sound.
Lack of proof
Mzoudi, who was a friend of lead hijacker Mohamed Atta and other members of the Hamburg cell involved in plotting the terror attacks, has repeatedly denied having knowledge of the group's plans. The presiding judge during the February 2004 trial described the Moroccan student as a "fringe figure" and justified the acquittal because there was insufficient proof against Mzoudi, not because the court was convinced of his innocence.
The ongoing case against Mzoudi has led to tensions between Germany and the United States because of Washington's refusal, on security grounds, to allow captured al Qaeda leaders to testify or to provide information from their interrogations. The lack of such input is largely believed to have lead to the prosecution's failure to convict. The chief federal prosecutor has described US behavior as "incomprehensible."
Another Moroccan residing in Germany, Mounir El Motassadeq, is currently in the midst of a retrial on similar charges in Hamburg. [Motassadec was sentenced to 15 years in his original trial. Most observers believe he too will be aquitted on retrial.]Like Mzoudi, he denies involvement and knowledge of the attacks.
Deportation probable
Despite the confirmation of acquittal, Mzoudi could face deportation from Germany. Authorities in the northern city of Hamburg, where Mzoudi resides, say they still consider him an "especially dangerous" supporter of international terrorism and have vowed to expel him once legal proceedings are over.
The director of the city-state's department for internal affairs, Reinhard Fallak, said an earlier decision to deport Mzoudi was still in effect, having only been postponed for the duration of the appeals hearing. Mzoudi now has 14 days to leave the country.

[Democratic Hawk]

I wouldn't say so. I'm centre-left (as a whole) and, while I'm not anti-Islam per se, I'm even more scathing of Islamic fundamentalism than I am of the Christian Fundamentalist Right - and that's saying something!

I'd guess most Muslim's in Western countries support left-of-centre parties but for socio-economic, rather than religious, reasons - but it doesn't follow that leftism is pro-Islam. I'm sure many leftists emphatically reject most forms of religious fundamentalism, the extremes of which threaten the very essence of civil society and liberal democracy

Dave

[afleitch]

When the left embraced political correctness they also had to embrace, somewhat grudgingly, Islam. Now Islamic voters, especially in Europe are vital to winning many urban centres in elections and all parties court with them, in particular the hard left resulting in abominations such as 'Respect.' This courtship is so one sided that leftist parties tone down their traditional (post 60's) support for gay rights and womens equality in order not to turn off Muslim voters. Oh and Labour then adopts a stupidly fought out idea to stamp out 'racial hatred' and proposed a bill that would put someone in prison for 7 years for having a heated and passionate disagreement with any religion, a sentence harder than that handed out to people who physically attack someone; from rape to paedophilia! Good idea Tony...good idea :/

[migrendel]

In this matter, I can only speak for myself personally. I do not consider myself to be pro-Islam, for there is a great deal on which I disagree with the Muslim faith. However, I feel strongly in the right to follow the religious beliefs prescribed by one's conscience, and for this reason, I cannot agree with those who oppose Islam or seek to have it legally circumscribed. For many men, and yes, for many women, following the dictates of the faith is a fundamental part of their identity, and something from which they derive their feeling of personal realization. Some might remain unimpressed, but I admire someone who could commit himself to such a rigid life, and I would never take the rights owed to him away.

[migrendel]

I agree with you, aflteich. The new incitement to religious hatred offense is not a piece of legislation which has the salutary effect of protecting the rights of Muslims, who are so often victimized by discrimination. It is an idea which would take away a right to criticize religion that must be cherished in a free society. I see no distinction between this and the law of blashphemy inasmuch as it works to insulate religion from the opposition that every concept which enters the public realm can and should encounter.

[dazzleman]

I think that for most leftists, anti-Americanism trumps everything else.  For that reason alone, many leftists have a sympathy for Islam, despite the fact that they abhor most of the ideas that Islam represents.  It's just that they hate America even more, and therefore must find something good to say about Islam.

Alfteich also makes great points about political correctness.  The main goal of political correctness is to defend and reward all that is evil, at the expense of the good.  Since fundamentalism Islam preaches mass murder, it is very important to show great tolerance for it.  Since Christianity does not preach mass murder (at this time), and is the dominant religion in America, it has no such claim on tolerance toward it.

Understand?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I think that for most leftists, anti-Americanism trumps everything else.  For that reason alone, many leftists have a sympathy for Islam, despite the fact that they abhor most of the ideas that Islam represents.  It's just that they hate America even more, and therefore must find something good to say about Islam.

LOL. Do you really think most people who voted for Kerry really hate America and support anything that's anti-American (and of course, there's no reason for htem being anti-American, it just is that way)

You're a complete idiot if you really think that. The truth is, I do no care if something is pro- or anti-American. I only care about if I agree with it. I do not agree with Islam, so I hate it. I agree with Hugo Chavez, so I like him. I agree with the Sudan People's Liberation Army, who are pro-American, so I support them. Being pro- or anti-American has nothing to do with it. How something stands on America is meaningless to me, I only judge things SOLEY on how close to my ideology they are.

Please show me where I have praised North Korea. Being such an anti-American country, I should love it by your standards.

Of course this was my opinion, then I went to a leadership convention. Now I don't care if anything is pro- or anti-American, just if it's anti-communist.

[dazzleman]

I think that for most leftists, anti-Americanism trumps everything else.  For that reason alone, many leftists have a sympathy for Islam, despite the fact that they abhor most of the ideas that Islam represents.  It's just that they hate America even more, and therefore must find something good to say about Islam.

LOL. Do you really think most people who voted for Kerry really hate America and support anything that's anti-American (and of course, there's no reason for htem being anti-American, it just is that way)

You're a complete idiot if you really think that. The truth is, I do no care if something is pro- or anti-American. I only care about if I agree with it. I do not agree with Islam, so I hate it. I agree with Hugo Chavez, so I like him. I agree with the Sudan People's Liberation Army, who are pro-American, so I support them. Being pro- or anti-American has nothing to do with it. How something stands on America is meaningless to me, I only judge things SOLEY on how close to my ideology they are.

Please show me where I have praised North Korea. Being such an anti-American country, I should love it by your standards.

Of course this was my opinion, then I went to a leadership convention. Now I don't care if anything is pro- or anti-American, just if it's anti-communist.

I don't think all people who voted for Kerry hate America.  But I think that some of them do.  The extreme leftists who hate America are a relatively small part of the Democratic party, but have a disproportionate influence on the party, and the public image that the party has.

You really should read what I say more carefully before making comments.  It's important to demonstrate intelligence yourself before labeling somebody else an idiot.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

You said MOST leftists.

You also failed to show where I said I loved North Korea. By your logic, I should, because you think I support anything that's anti-American, no matter what. You have said I was anti-American for hating South Vietnam, when in fact my view on it is PRO-American, I don't think that horrid regime was worth a single American dime or single American life defending, regardless of what the alternative is. Therefore I wanted absolutely no American intervention in Vietnam, thus saving AMERICAN lives and AMERICAN resources.

[Jake]

BRTD himself loves a host of anti-American dictators and future dictators. See Chavez, Morales, etc

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

They aren't dictators, and I like them because they are leftist. The fact that they are anti-American (and I don't even think they are, just anti-Bush) is completely irrelevant to me. I don't like the anti-American regime in Sudan.

[dazzleman]

You said MOST leftists.

You also failed to show where I said I loved North Korea. By your logic, I should, because you think I support anything that's anti-American, no matter what. You have said I was anti-American for hating South Vietnam, when in fact my view on it is PRO-American, I don't think that horrid regime was worth a single American dime or single American life defending, regardless of what the alternative is. Therefore I wanted absolutely no American intervention in Vietnam, thus saving AMERICAN lives and AMERICAN resources.

You don't seem to get it.  I'm not looking to address your personal views.  You may or may not be the typical leftist.  Not all Democratic voters or Kerry voters are leftists in any case.

I don't give a rat's azz about your views of North Korea.  You'd have to be one step away from the looney bin to like that government.  

Your overall tone is anti-American.  It's an observation I made a while back, and I continue to believe it, for a number of reasons other than just your opinion of South Vietnam.  Maybe you're just negative in general, and would be negative toward whatever society you live in.

You seem to have taken a personal affront to my observation and I regret that, but it is what I believe.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

You don't seem to get it.  I'm not looking to address your personal views.  You may or may not be the typical leftist.  Not all Democratic voters or Kerry voters are leftists in any case.

it seems to me you are defining leftists as being anti-American, and therefore that anyone who is not anti-American is not a leftist.

I don't give a rat's azz about your views of North Korea.  You'd have to be one step away from the looney bin to like that government.

well no arguments here, but by your logic leftists should like it solely because of it's anti-Americanism. Not the case.  Also not the case with Sudan.

Your overall tone is anti-American.  It's an observation I made a while back, and I continue to believe it, for a number of reasons other than just your opinion of South Vietnam.  Maybe you're just negative in general, and would be negative toward whatever society you live in.

give evidence. And like I said before, I can just seem to be anti-American now because of how strongly opposed to the current administration I am. Things would be much different if John Kerry was in office.

You seem to have taken a personal affront to my observation and I regret that, but it is what I believe.

Basically because what you believe is utter bullsh**t.

[dazzleman]

You don't seem to get it.  I'm not looking to address your personal views.  You may or may not be the typical leftist.  Not all Democratic voters or Kerry voters are leftists in any case.

it seems to me you are defining leftists as being anti-American, and therefore that anyone who is not anti-American is not a leftist.

I don't give a rat's azz about your views of North Korea.  You'd have to be one step away from the looney bin to like that government.

well no arguments here, but by your logic leftists should like it solely because of it's anti-Americanism. Not the case.  Also not the case with Sudan.

Your overall tone is anti-American.  It's an observation I made a while back, and I continue to believe it, for a number of reasons other than just your opinion of South Vietnam.  Maybe you're just negative in general, and would be negative toward whatever society you live in.

give evidence. And like I said before, I can just seem to be anti-American now because of how strongly opposed to the current administration I am. Things would be much different if John Kerry was in office.

You seem to have taken a personal affront to my observation and I regret that, but it is what I believe.

Basically because what you believe is utter bullsh**t.

BRTD, I believe that you are not interested in the security or well-being of the US, and that you have no appreciation for the freedoms and privileges that come with being an American.  If I were so inclined to take the time, I could come up with many, many quotes to back myself up on this, but nothing would convince you anyway, so I'm not going to bother.

In general, you seem to be motivated much more by negative emotions than by positive ones.  One day you may regret that.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

There's a difference between what you claim and being truly anti-American.

[nclib]

No.

Leftist values on women's rights, gay rights, civil liberties, social justice are diametrically opposite Islamic values on these and other issues.

[patrick1]

You're a complete idiot if you really think that. The truth is, I do no care if something is pro- or anti-American. I only care about if I agree with it.

So basically your ideolgy trumps your love of country?  There is a simple solution to sort that out- move.  I'd wager you wouldn't last too long in some third world $hithole.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

What it means is that my country doesn't trump my support for human rights, for example it means I still think Pinochet is scum (dazzleman once said I was anti-American for hating him).  dazzleman also said he considers the Saudi Royals better than Hugo Chavez and judges them ONLY on how well they get along with the US, while I say Chavez is far better because he doesn't run a theocratic police state.