Do you know any poor white people?

[DavidB.]

Also, it's hilarious to see self-identifying "left-wing progressives" espousing racism (why don't the blacks just vote for BERN already?!?!) and classism (hee hee hee those dumb racist Appalachian rednecks losing their jobs!!1!!!! not rly poor ofc, just lazy) on a daily basis.

 

Intell is truly the voice of sanity in this thread (and Antonio and Figueira).

To be perfectly honest, I do not know any poor people of any race.  All my friends are in the top 1% in terms of income.  All my relatives and co-workers are all in the top 5% in terms of income.  Only exception would be vendors of all sorts (cleaning lady, gardeners, handyman, heating guy, nannies etc etc) which I would not even say I know them well beyond the transnational nature of our relationships.  

I don't exactly know why, but I feel like throwing up after reading this.

[This account no longer in use.]

Just saying, you sure will need those West Virginia votes, Indiana votes, Missouri votes, Montana votes, North Dakota votes if you want to not completely lose the 2018 midterms.

[Boston Bread]

Sanders shouldn't have said this. But having represented the whitest state in the nation, he didn't mean it.

[Türkisblau]

Atlas needs to be burned to the ground.

[Figueira]

Also, it's hilarious to see self-identifying "left-wing progressives" espousing racism (why don't the blacks just vote for BERN already?!?!) and classism (hee hee hee those dumb racist Appalachian rednecks losing their jobs!!1!!!! not rly poor ofc, just lazy) on a daily basis.

 

Intell is truly the voice of sanity in this thread (and Antonio and Figueira).

To be perfectly honest, I do not know any poor people of any race.  All my friends are in the top 1% in terms of income.  All my relatives and co-workers are all in the top 5% in terms of income.  Only exception would be vendors of all sorts (cleaning lady, gardeners, handyman, heating guy, nannies etc etc) which I would not even say I know them well beyond the transnational nature of our relationships.  

I don't exactly know why, but I feel like throwing up after reading this.

I'm glad you think I'm the voice of sanity.

I would, however, like to point out that the people making classist comments in this thread are Clinton supporters, which is kind of weird.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

I was born in Kentucky, that question answers itself for me.

[KingSweden]

I challenge anyone to drive through Eastern Washington or Northern Idaho and claim that the people there enjoy any kind of "white privilege." The intersectional-heavy rhetoric you see from the campus left and Salon-esque sources these days are dangerous not because they prevent downscale whites in the South from voting Democrat - that ship sailed decades ago - but because they color the policy prescriptions offered by progressive politicians who, outside of (to his credit) Bernie Sanders seem desperate to be never seen helping rural voters (middle-class, urban liberal whites have all kinds of policy demands Democrats are quick to cave to including but not limited to higher minimum wage, rent control, mass transit, social policies, etc. All of which I am supportive of, but still).

It should also be pointed out that there are plenty of poor or downscale whites who don't live in Appalachia but in cities and suburbs who are not culturally "poor white" as many modern progressives think of it, and these men and women certainly don't suffer from any privilege themselves.

[Shadows]

Yea he made a mistake IMO! Now watch the hillhacks run riot! No issue about Clinton lying around in every debate!

[The Free North]

Atlas needs to be burned to the ground.

Yeah honestly, the comments in this thread are pretty repulsive.

If ever you needed evidence that this forum was full of classist snobs...here you go.

[BundouYMB]

I challenge anyone to drive through Eastern Washington or Northern Idaho and claim that the people there enjoy any kind of "white privilege." The intersectional-heavy rhetoric you see from the campus left and Salon-esque sources these days are dangerous not because they prevent downscale whites in the South from voting Democrat - that ship sailed decades ago - but because they color the policy prescriptions offered by progressive politicians who, outside of (to his credit) Bernie Sanders seem desperate to be never seen helping rural voters (middle-class, urban liberal whites have all kinds of policy demands Democrats are quick to cave to including but not limited to higher minimum wage, rent control, mass transit, social policies, etc. All of which I am supportive of, but still).

It should also be pointed out that there are plenty of poor or downscale whites who don't live in Appalachia but in cities and suburbs who are not culturally "poor white" as many modern progressives think of it, and these men and women certainly don't suffer from any privilege themselves.

I've literally lived in poor, rural, 99% white areas all my life so I think I'm entitled to my opinion. You, however, apparently drove through Idaho once and now you think you're the God appointed defender of working class whites, which I guess says everything anyone needs to know about this forum.

And when NY said that attitude was much more condescending then anything he said he was telling the truth.

[KingSweden]

I challenge anyone to drive through Eastern Washington or Northern Idaho and claim that the people there enjoy any kind of "white privilege." The intersectional-heavy rhetoric you see from the campus left and Salon-esque sources these days are dangerous not because they prevent downscale whites in the South from voting Democrat - that ship sailed decades ago - but because they color the policy prescriptions offered by progressive politicians who, outside of (to his credit) Bernie Sanders seem desperate to be never seen helping rural voters (middle-class, urban liberal whites have all kinds of policy demands Democrats are quick to cave to including but not limited to higher minimum wage, rent control, mass transit, social policies, etc. All of which I am supportive of, but still).

It should also be pointed out that there are plenty of poor or downscale whites who don't live in Appalachia but in cities and suburbs who are not culturally "poor white" as many modern progressives think of it, and these men and women certainly don't suffer from any privilege themselves.

I've literally lived in poor, rural, 99% white areas all my life so I think I'm entitled to my opinion. You, however, apparently drove through Idaho once and now you think you're the God appointed defender of working class whites, which I guess says everything anyone needs to know about this forum.

And when NY said that attitude was much more condescending then anything he said he was telling the truth.

I live a few miles from the Idaho border and have spent considerable time there, nor am I "defending" poor whites. I'm not attacking them, either, nor did I at any point attack your opinion. Jeez.

[EliteLX]

There are more poor and burdened white people than the entire black population in the United States.

What a joke of a stereotypical liberal argument.

[traininthedistance]

For f**ks sake.  We should be better than this.

To be clear: I'm not sure that I particularly want to vote the same way as West Virginia.  My deeply held beliefs include the truth that systemic racism is a Real Problem and that even poor people can have bad views, that we have a moral obligation, for the sake of future generations, to prosecute the War on Coal to its fullest extent and leave that sh*t in the ground, that we should invest in our cities, promote cultural cosmopolitanism, etc etc etc.  Being poor doesn't excuse being racist, it doesn't excuse spitting on facts.  These are things I don't have any particular interest in compromising on, and as such I recognize that a Democratic Party I can comfortably be a part of is one that is going to lose in a lot of poor white areas.  Some principles need defending, you can't please everyone all of the time.

But, Jesus f**k, it's still not okay to sneer on people who are struggling like that.  It's not okay to say, "you deserve the sh*t you're in."  You still gotta be the bigger man and treat people with compassion, and do things to help those in distress, despite whatever objectively harmful views they hold.  (And, even if West Virginia is a lost cause for the foreseeable future, taking the high road does make a difference.  Like, in, say, Ohio.)  If you can't do that, then kindly STFU.

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

Atlas needs to be burned to the ground.

this was apparent long ago.

[DINGO Joe]

Just saying, you sure will need those West Virginia votes, Indiana votes, Missouri votes, Montana votes, North Dakota votes if you want to not completely lose the 2018 midterms.

WV has the highest drug overdose death rate of any state in the US, ND has the lowest. WV has a smoking rate 50% higher than the US rate and the avg smoker in WV smokes twice as many packs a day. WV is a public health disaster, ND not.   Fracking led to a boom in ND, it's destroyed coal mining in WV.  Only dumbs think all rural states and areas are alike.

[Asian Nazi]

F**k white people, poor or rich.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Wow. Just wow. I knew NYMillennial was a complete and utter dick, but IceSpear too? You make me ashamed of being a Democrat.

You're not a Democrat.

[BundouYMB]

I challenge anyone to drive through Eastern Washington or Northern Idaho and claim that the people there enjoy any kind of "white privilege." The intersectional-heavy rhetoric you see from the campus left and Salon-esque sources these days are dangerous not because they prevent downscale whites in the South from voting Democrat - that ship sailed decades ago - but because they color the policy prescriptions offered by progressive politicians who, outside of (to his credit) Bernie Sanders seem desperate to be never seen helping rural voters (middle-class, urban liberal whites have all kinds of policy demands Democrats are quick to cave to including but not limited to higher minimum wage, rent control, mass transit, social policies, etc. All of which I am supportive of, but still).

It should also be pointed out that there are plenty of poor or downscale whites who don't live in Appalachia but in cities and suburbs who are not culturally "poor white" as many modern progressives think of it, and these men and women certainly don't suffer from any privilege themselves.

I've literally lived in poor, rural, 99% white areas all my life so I think I'm entitled to my opinion. You, however, apparently drove through Idaho once and now you think you're the God appointed defender of working class whites, which I guess says everything anyone needs to know about this forum.

And when NY said that attitude was much more condescending then anything he said he was telling the truth.

I live a few miles from the Idaho border and have spent considerable time there, nor am I "defending" poor whites. I'm not attacking them, either, nor did I at any point attack your opinion. Jeez.

Yeah, yeah you are. Let's be clear about this. When you blame "intersectional-heavy rhetoric you see from the campus left and Salon-esque sources" for "[coloring] the policy prescriptions offered by progressive politicians" you're both being incredible condescending towards and defending poor, rural whites at the same time.

You're being condescending because you're saying that maybe if we use slightly different words to couch our policies there will be some great proverbial come-to-Jesus moment where rural voters will start voting in progressive politicians, like people in Appalachia, or the south, or Idaho, or wherever are all just that ing stupid and don't have informed, deeply & sincerely held conservative beliefs about what's right for America.

These people are conservatives. If you put a white, male left-wing farmer on TV and have him couch everything in conservative buzz words it won't change anything. As long as he holds the same sets of policy positions as other Democrats, he'll still lose. You, and other people in this thread, have no idea how ing condescending it sounds to act like poor, rural whites are not just as informed and educated in voting in the politicians they vote in as you lot in the suburbs. They are.

You're defending them, because by blaming "intersectional-heavy rhetoric you see from the campus left and Salon-esque sources" for "[coloring] the policy prescriptions offered by progressive politicians" you're letting them off the hook for the things they say, do, and support. If they vote in racist, vile politicians like Donald Trump, or God knows how many other examples, they have no responsibility. It's all the fault of the "campus left" (you know, the Democratic base) and their "intersectional-heavy rhetoric" for alienating them, for not sucking up to them hard enough, or it's societies fault, or whatever. Of course, no one has to pander to the nasty "campus left" to get them not to vote in vile people...

It might sound crazy to hear this from a Democrat, but I do believe in a degree of self responsibility. I do understand how hard it is growing up in rural areas, in trailer parks, and I hope to God the Democratic party represents the interests of poor, rural whites, even if they don't vote for us (and they never will.) HOWEVER, I do not believe in always letting people off the hook for their actions. These poor, rural whites are ideological conservatives, they're educated, they know what they're doing, and a lot of them are great people. I've known racists who were great husbands, brought their wives flowers every weekend, great fathers, volunteered, ect.

Again though, a lot of them are racists. A lot of them are sexists. And they are ideological conservatives. And in those respects, they're vile. It's not the Democratic party's fault, or anyone else's responsibility when they vote in racist, sexist, conservative politicians. The voters who elect these politicians are responsible for them. And they have to be called out, they have to be criticized. And I'm sick to ing death of seeing Democrats, in the Democratic ing party, which is supposed to stand up against racism constantly bending over backwards to make excuses for these people. Just, please, stop.

Rant over.

[This account no longer in use.]

Just saying, you sure will need those West Virginia votes, Indiana votes, Missouri votes, Montana votes, North Dakota votes if you want to not completely lose the 2018 midterms.

WV has the highest drug overdose death rate of any state in the US, ND has the lowest. WV has a smoking rate 50% higher than the US rate and the avg smoker in WV smokes twice as many packs a day. WV is a public health disaster, ND not.   Fracking led to a boom in ND, it's destroyed coal mining in WV.  Only dumbs think all rural states and areas are alike.

True, but the people who don't care about ND votes and the people who don't care about WV votes are the same people.

[KingSweden]

I challenge anyone to drive through Eastern Washington or Northern Idaho and claim that the people there enjoy any kind of "white privilege." The intersectional-heavy rhetoric you see from the campus left and Salon-esque sources these days are dangerous not because they prevent downscale whites in the South from voting Democrat - that ship sailed decades ago - but because they color the policy prescriptions offered by progressive politicians who, outside of (to his credit) Bernie Sanders seem desperate to be never seen helping rural voters (middle-class, urban liberal whites have all kinds of policy demands Democrats are quick to cave to including but not limited to higher minimum wage, rent control, mass transit, social policies, etc. All of which I am supportive of, but still).

It should also be pointed out that there are plenty of poor or downscale whites who don't live in Appalachia but in cities and suburbs who are not culturally "poor white" as many modern progressives think of it, and these men and women certainly don't suffer from any privilege themselves.

I've literally lived in poor, rural, 99% white areas all my life so I think I'm entitled to my opinion. You, however, apparently drove through Idaho once and now you think you're the God appointed defender of working class whites, which I guess says everything anyone needs to know about this forum.

And when NY said that attitude was much more condescending then anything he said he was telling the truth.

I live a few miles from the Idaho border and have spent considerable time there, nor am I "defending" poor whites. I'm not attacking them, either, nor did I at any point attack your opinion. Jeez.

Yeah, yeah you are. Let's be clear about this. When you blame "intersectional-heavy rhetoric you see from the campus left and Salon-esque sources" for "[coloring] the policy prescriptions offered by progressive politicians" you're both being incredible condescending towards and defending poor, rural whites at the same time.

You're being condescending because you're saying that maybe if we use slightly different words to couch our policies there will be some great proverbial come-to-Jesus moment where rural voters will start voting in progressive politicians, like people in Appalachia, or the south, or Idaho, or wherever are all just that ing stupid and don't have informed, deeply & sincerely held conservative beliefs about what's right for America.

These people are conservatives. If you put a white, male left-wing farmer on TV and have him couch everything in conservative buzz words it won't change anything. As long as he holds the same sets of policy positions as other Democrats, he'll still lose. You, and other people in this thread, have no idea how ing condescending it sounds to act like poor, rural whites are not just as informed and educated in voting in the politicians they vote in as you lot in the suburbs. They are.

You're defending them, because by blaming "intersectional-heavy rhetoric you see from the campus left and Salon-esque sources" for "[coloring] the policy prescriptions offered by progressive politicians" you're letting them off the hook for the things they say, do, and support. If they vote in racist, vile politicians like Donald Trump, or God knows how many other example, they have no responsibility. It's all the fault of the "campus left" (you know, the Democratic base) and their "intersectional-heavy rhetoric" for alienating them, for not sucking up to them hard enough, or it's societies fault, or whatever. Of course, no one has to pander to the nasty "campus left" to get them not to vote in vile people...

It might sound crazy to hear this from a Democrat, but I do believe in a degree of self responsibility. I do understand how hard it is growing up in rural areas, in trailer parks, and I hope to God the Democratic party represents the interests of poor, rural whites, even if they don't vote for us (and they never will.) HOWEVER, I do not believe in always letting people off the hook for their actions. These poor, rural whites are ideological conservatives, they're educated, they know what they're doing, and a lot of them are great people. I've known racists who were great husbands, brought their wives flowers every weekend, great fathers, volunteered, ect.

Again though, a lot of them are racists. A lot of them are sexists. And they are ideological conservatives. And in those respects, they're vile. It's not the Democratic party's fault, or anyone else's responsibility when they vote in racist, sexist, conservative politicians. The voters who elect these politicians are responsible for them. And they have to be called out, they have to be criticized. And I'm sick to ing death of seeing Democrats, in the Democratic ing party, which is supposed to stand up against racism constantly bending over backwards to make excuses for these people. Just, please, stop.

Rant over.

I don't disagree with the thrust of what you wrote, so I probably didn't write my initial comment clearly enough.

Like train wrote up above, we need to be the bigger people. The rural voters you describe are 100% conservatives and thinking that "buzzwords" will change anything will not work. Agreed. However, like you said, we need to be the party that represents all people, whether they vote for us or not. Politicians are (and have to be) responsive first to their base, but this only encourages the unfortunate tribalism we see in American politics today.

I don't think anyone is "dumb" for who they vote for, and I have a much better sense for why many rural whites are Republicans now than I did just a few years ago. It is certainly not because they are stupid or Uninformed, and that reflects my broader critique of the modern Democratic Party - we do ourselves no favor by pretending this.

We also don't do ourselves any favors by ignoring abject poverty, meth addiction, high school dropout rates that are through the roof in these areas. The Republicans certainly aren't doing much to combat these problems and even if we don't earn the votes of a demographic leery of cosmopolitanism and liberal values, opiate addiction and this kind of mass unemployment should be an outrage.

I don't doubt that the reason this is largely forgotten is that the Democratic leadership is fundamentally urban and so is more familiar/comfortable with urban problems, many of which are acute. Police violence, failing schools, the need for mass transit, NIMBY-run housing policies - these need to be solved and deserve the attention they get (or finally getting). But for us to be the morally superior party we cannot ignore millions of fellow Americans who are suffering in rural communities. I do not doubt that many Democrats, including President Obama, would like to do more to help them.

My critique is that dismissing their plight under he guise of "white privilege" hurts progressivism as much as it hurts the rural poor. It is morally unacceptable to rationalize that it is okay to help one marginalized group but dismiss another because they have "white privilege" or are "racist." I do not think that was your point, at least I did not interpret it as such, but that's the vibe I got from some other posters.

[RI]

I challenge anyone to drive through Eastern Washington or Northern Idaho and claim that the people there enjoy any kind of "white privilege."

Their are plenty of poor white people in western Washington, too. The Pacific coast has been pretty devastated economically (minus the really tourist-y parts), and having grown up in rural-ish Snohomish County, I can say there are a lot of poor white places with heavy drug problems there, too (Granite Falls, Arlington, Camano Island, most anywhere in the foothills/mountains of Snoho, Skagit, and Whatcom).

Granted, crossing from Spokane County into Kootenai County is quite the experience. Oh boy.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Some of my fellow red avatars/liberals here:

"Stupid poor white trash rednecks and hicks who have the nerve to not automatically vote Democratic. Why do they vote against their best interests? Why don't they vote for Democrats? "

If you treat people with utter contempt, they will respond in kind. Basic human behavior. And it really doesn't do any favors for the reputations of (supposedly) highly educated upper-middle class liberals (most of whom are also white, FTR) to act like elitist, classist snobs whose favorite pastime is being actively antagonistic toward  less economically fortune white people. Just because they are, in your view, the "wrong" kind of white people (how racist and classist is that?)  or are otherwise embarrassments to American culture (which is - and this is an important point - quite racist at all levels, with middle and upper class whites being far, far absolved from said racism), doesn't mean that you are justified in denying them political agency. That is the last thing that they - or any other social group, for that matter - need or want.

And just as an FYI, there are still more working class white voters than there are middle and upper class white voters; moreover, this is especially true in many key swing states and in districts that Democrats desperately need to make inroads into if they ever again want control of the House of Representatives and/or a majority of state legislatures. That should give us Democrats pause, next time any of us are tempted to sneer at working class (white) people "voting against their interests."

[Asian Nazi]

I challenge anyone to drive through Eastern Washington or Northern Idaho and claim that the people there enjoy any kind of "white privilege."

Their are plenty of poor white people in western Washington, too. The Pacific coast has been pretty devastated economically (minus the really tourist-y parts), and having grown up in rural-ish Snohomish County, I can say there are a lot of poor white places with heavy drug problems there, too (Granite Falls, Arlington, Camano Island, most anywhere in the foothills/mountains of Snoho, Skagit, and Whatcom).

Granted, crossing from Spokane County into Kootenai County is quite the experience. Oh boy.

Yeah, the poorest communities in Washington are 1. rez towns 2. Hispanic towns in Central WA and 3. the poor white towns along the Pacific coast. 

[Yank2133]

Oh God, I hate these comments and the poor white-hating done.

Yes, absolutely.  This is plain ignorance.  This is why Democrats have no hope of winning West Virginia.  This is why Matt Bevin is governor of Kentucky.  This is what is the matter with Kansas.  This is why George W. Bush won in 2000.   

This forum is hilarious. How many different groups of people are constantly bashed here? Yet like clockwork, the second anyone takes aim at the hicks, droves of people start hyperventilating about how mean, insensitive, and cruel you are. lol

As for your post, GOOD! I don't want WV/KY in the Democratic coalition. Democrats being angst ridden about those places voting Republican is about as silly as if Republicans were angst ridden about not being able to appeal to socialists in Vermont or far left hippies in San Francisco. Oh wait, that wouldn't happen, since they're not retarded. If anything, bashing those places helps fire up their base and improve where they actually need to.

So true.

Anyway, poor Appalachians/Southern whites are never going to vote for us. Some Democrats just need to accept that reality and it is fine, we don't really need them to win. However, this doesn't mean Democrats should just ignore them policy wise and they don't.

[BundouYMB]

[snip]

My critique is that dismissing their plight under he guise of "white privilege" hurts progressivism as much as it hurts the rural poor. It is morally unacceptable to rationalize that it is okay to help one marginalized group but dismiss another because they have "white privilege" or are "racist." I do not think that was your point, at least I did not interpret it as such, but that's the vibe I got from some other posters.

I understand what you're saying then, and I think it's fair. I think that looking at the typical poor, white, racist rural voter it's fair to say that they've been exploited in a lot of ways in their life, and that's terrible, but that doesn't mean white privilege doesn't also exist and that they haven't benefited from it some ways while still remaining a member of a poor and marginalized group. I hope that's not me dismissing their plight.

And, like I said, from the bottom of my heart I hope the Democratic addresses those issues and represents poor, rural whites even if they don't vote for us.

However, what you're saying is not the vibe I got from some other posters and that's why I reacted so strongly. The vibe I was getting was that because rural, poor whites are exploited in some ways that absolves them of responsibility for their actions, whether that's what they say, what they do, or who they vote for. Some people in this thread, to me, seem perfectly happy to bend over backwards to make excuses for blatant racism on that basis. I want the Democratic party to try to do right by poor, rural whites but I also want it to be unafraid to call out racism and sexism, not shuffle their feet and make excuses.