Changing ideologies and growing older...

[Beet]

Well, when the current "liberal" position is to sue telemarketing firms as a primary source of income, it's rather difficult not to, wouldn't you say?  In any case, the only liberal being bashed here seems to be able to take for himself just fine.

What's wrong with suing telemarketing firms? Those firms need to take it up the ass once in a while to make their lives more exciting. Besides, it provides employment to lawyers.

[Gabu]

Well, when the current "liberal" position is to sue telemarketing firms as a primary source of income, it's rather difficult not to, wouldn't you say?  In any case, the only liberal being bashed here seems to be able to take for himself just fine.

I'm more talking about Richius and dazzleman, neither of whom seem to miss a chance to profess how evil liberals are.  You know, stuff like...

Smart people are conservative.

and his "liberalism is a mental disorder", stolen straight from Michael Savage.

[Citizen James]

Firstly, over the years I've generally become more socially liberal (roughly, in the way I would define left/right terminology.)  When I was a kid I was almost as conservative as Philip.  In college (my first degree), I was a solid supporter of Reagan, and later George HW Bush (whom I still have a fair amount of respect for in terms of foriegn policy skill).

Years of working in corporate America showed me that corporations are almost as inefficent as government, and will often ballance breaking the law against the chances of getting caught and the penalty for doing so.  I feel that the checks and ballances of mixed capitalism help to moderate the many excesses of pure lazzes faire.   I also matured in terms of learning that people are people, with a wide variety of virtues and vices - and that there are people who are easier or harder to get along with from a variety of backgrounds.  I have known some very tollerant fundementlists, I haven't known many gays (at least people who were openly so), but I've encountered a few who were very millitant.

Secondly, I'm pretty sure that political viewpoints are not in the DSM-IV.  Having extremely rigid opinions shows up in a few diagnoses, and homosexuality was listed in earlier versions before 'liberals' decided that it wasn't a form of illness.  Some 'conservatives' believe it still should be considered such - most likely many of the same who joke that liberals should be included.

Thirdly, although it is a commonly held belief that people become more conservative as they age, I haven't seen much evidence to support that.  I suppose it could be hypothisized that people do tend to hold on to the beliefs from when they were younger, and that since society evolves the old beliefs tend to seem more conservative because they were considered 'mainstream' back then.  There are still a few people alive who were around when women couldn't vote, plenty of people who grew up when schools (and bathrooms, and drinking fountans, and restraunts, and bus seats, and so on...) were segragated, and tons of people from an age when the only body piercing that wasn't considered extreme was women's lower earlobes.   But I haven't seen any emperical evidence that people's personal beleifs grow more conservative than ones they previously held.   One generations radical is a conservative to the next.

Then again, much of what is called 'conservative' these days seems to have little to do with conserving (either traditions or resources).  Mostly it seems like an odd alliance between radical fundementalists (believers in biblical literalism and initerancy), proponets of lazzes faire economics (despite the hard lessons of the past, or perhaps because of short term greed) and neoconservatives/millitant ultranationalists (Neocons seeking international American dominance, millitant ultranationalists just likeing the idea of kicking ass around the world.)

[TeePee4Prez]

Firstly, over the years I've generally become more socially liberal (roughly, in the way I would define left/right terminology.)  When I was a kid I was almost as conservative as Philip.  In college (my first degree), I was a solid supporter of Reagan, and later George HW Bush (whom I still have a fair amount of respect for in terms of foriegn policy skill).

Years of working in corporate America showed me that corporations are almost as inefficent as government, and will often ballance breaking the law against the chances of getting caught and the penalty for doing so.  I feel that the checks and ballances of mixed capitalism help to moderate the many excesses of pure lazzes faire.   I also matured in terms of learning that people are people, with a wide variety of virtues and vices - and that there are people who are easier or harder to get along with from a variety of backgrounds.  I have known some very tollerant fundementlists, I haven't known many gays (at least people who were openly so), but I've encountered a few who were very millitant.

Secondly, I'm pretty sure that political viewpoints are not in the DSM-IV.  Having extremely rigid opinions shows up in a few diagnoses, and homosexuality was listed in earlier versions before 'liberals' decided that it wasn't a form of illness.  Some 'conservatives' believe it still should be considered such - most likely many of the same who joke that liberals should be included.

Thirdly, although it is a commonly held belief that people become more conservative as they age, I haven't seen much evidence to support that.  I suppose it could be hypothisized that people do tend to hold on to the beliefs from when they were younger, and that since society evolves the old beliefs tend to seem more conservative because they were considered 'mainstream' back then.  There are still a few people alive who were around when women couldn't vote, plenty of people who grew up when schools (and bathrooms, and drinking fountans, and restraunts, and bus seats, and so on...) were segragated, and tons of people from an age when the only body piercing that wasn't considered extreme was women's lower earlobes.   But I haven't seen any emperical evidence that people's personal beleifs grow more conservative than ones they previously held.   One generations radical is a conservative to the next.

Then again, much of what is called 'conservative' these days seems to have little to do with conserving (either traditions or resources).  Mostly it seems like an odd alliance between radical fundementalists (believers in biblical literalism and initerancy), proponets of lazzes faire economics (despite the hard lessons of the past, or perhaps because of short term greed) and neoconservatives/millitant ultranationalists (Neocons seeking international American dominance, millitant ultranationalists just likeing the idea of kicking ass around the world.)

Funny, I too became more liberal as I got older.  I generally favored unions, but I at one time wanted welfare eliminated, had the John McCain point of view on choice, I'll admit I was a bit more racist, wanted the borders closed, and actually had a somewhat (but not entirely) favorable view towards Pat Buchanan.  I also thought in the 1990s that having a decent GPA and a college degree would guarantee me a $50,000+/year job when the average home price was $100,000.  Boy was I wrong!

[No more McShame]

I also thought in the 1990s that having a decent GPA and a college degree would guarantee me a $50,000+/year job when the average home price was $100,000.  Boy was I wrong!

Lol, I learned that one the hard way too. 

Actually I've moved to the right as I've gotten older.  When I was in HS & early college I was center-right on economics and center-left on social issues.  Didn't think a lot about foreign affairs.  I've moved to the right on both counts to where I'm hard-right on economics and center to center-right on social issues (depends on the issue).  Guess looking at that gross vs net on my paycheck had an effect on me .

[opebo]

when you get that first 75 thousand dollar a year job

Only a very tiny minority of people ever have a job like that.

well, you can be a tad intimidating at times.

Well yes.  In case someone didn't observe, I take being opinionated to a whole new level.  What is even cooler is that I am not your cookie cutter conservative (being African American and not straight with more libertarian beliefs socially) and I can really nail liberals to a tree in no time when they try their puny "arguments" (excuses really, for being lazy, on welfare, disadvantaged, stupid, or some other thing in life that isn't "fair.") on me in real life about how disadvantaged gays and African Americans and immigrants are.  And being the ideological lazy morons they are on campus (the neo commies), they get worked up a lot when I write about them as having a mental disorder or a virus or suffering from laziness & welfare syndrome. (I have a column in the school paper that is rather controversial.)

Richious, you are neither 'cool' nor african-american.  You're a self-hating homosexual lying with people who'd like to string you from the nearest tree or bash you on the nearest barbed-wire fence.  The nice ones are just waiting for 'god' to take care of punishing you later in hell.

And you are most definitely a cookie cutter conservative.  As for laziness - your opinion about it is standard, and is exactly what the owners would like you to swallow.  Enjoy your life of toil - don't look up or think, or you'll realize you've been duped.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

when you get that first 75 thousand dollar a year job

Only a very tiny minority of people ever have a job like that.

well, you can be a tad intimidating at times.

Well yes.  In case someone didn't observe, I take being opinionated to a whole new level.  What is even cooler is that I am not your cookie cutter conservative (being African American and not straight with more libertarian beliefs socially) and I can really nail liberals to a tree in no time when they try their puny "arguments" (excuses really, for being lazy, on welfare, disadvantaged, stupid, or some other thing in life that isn't "fair.") on me in real life about how disadvantaged gays and African Americans and immigrants are.  And being the ideological lazy morons they are on campus (the neo commies), they get worked up a lot when I write about them as having a mental disorder or a virus or suffering from laziness & welfare syndrome. (I have a column in the school paper that is rather controversial.)

Richious, you are neither 'cool' nor african-american.  You're a self-hating homosexual lying with people who'd like to string you from the nearest tree or bash you on the nearest barbed-wire fence.  The nice ones are just waiting for 'god' to take care of punishing you later in hell.

And you are most definitely a cookie cutter conservative.  As for laziness - your opinion about it is standard, and is exactly what the owners would like you to swallow.  Enjoy your life of toil - don't look up or think, or you'll realize you've been duped.

Richius seems to think he's quite a bit smarter than he really is.

[opebo]

Richius seems to think he's quite a bit smarter than he really is.

He and every other working-class 'conservative'.

[Richard]

when you get that first 75 thousand dollar a year job

Only a very tiny minority of people ever have a job like that.

Not true.  Maybe only a tiny minority of people YOU hang out with, but in general, that isn't true.

Richious, you are neither 'cool' nor african-american.

Don't be absurd.  I was born in Africa and now I'm a citizen in the Americas.  If you refer to skin color, well, that is illegal in Canada and you need to get over your racist thoughts (or so Democrats like to tell me).

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Really, false on both accounts.  You really have a hard time comprehending anything with just one neuron working, eh?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Really, don't be stupid.  Its either voting communists (Democrats) or voting for some moderates (Republicans), although some tend to be rather authoritarian.  However, Republicans are the ones that would leave me alone.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

You and BRTD are exemplary models of how laziness stems from liberalism.  No offense.  Life isn't some hedonistic cruise.  Life is about work and accomplishing something.

[Joe Republic]

It seems the mental disorder of liberalism wanes as you get life experience, knowledge, wisdom, and social skills.  Why is that?  Why is it that almost no one gets the disease at an older age, unless something very drastic happens in their life?

Smart people are conservative

Hypocrite.

I can really nail liberals to a tree in no time when they try their puny "arguments" (excuses really, for being lazy, on welfare, disadvantaged, stupid, or some other thing in life that isn't "fair.") on me in real life ... blah blah blah... And being the ideological lazy morons they are on campus ...

You really have a hard time comprehending anything with just one neuron working, eh? ... You and BRTD are exemplary models of how laziness stems from liberalism. No offense.

Is this guy for real?  Come back to us when you can argue a point without arrogance, stereotyping, or just being plain rude.

[Democratic Hawk]

I've probably became less socially liberal as I've grown older - but, as far as ecomomics go, I've always been a left-of-center socio-capitalist and will probably stay that way

That said, my principles have always been determined by pragmatics rather than ideology

Dave

[Palefire]

I became more economically conservative with age, and jobs, and having to pay taxes and save for the future, but my social ideas have remained liberal. I imagine that peoples political shiftings are no different their other shifting opinions - based on experiences and associations.

I would also note that Churchill's idea of what a conservative is may surprise a few people. Many people throw this quote out, and sight Churchill as a means of demonstrating its wisdom, while assuming that Churchill's idea of a conservative is the same as their own.

[David S]

Many people grow more and more conservative as they grow older.  It seems the mental disorder of liberalism wanes as you get life experience, knowledge, wisdom, and social skills.  Why is that?  Why is it that almost no one gets the disease at an older age, unless something very drastic happens in their life?

Old people have given up - they're bitter, and have little to live for.  Naturally they resent that anyone else have any fun.  Also, they are weak and cowardly, and fearing death, they become religious. 

There are few things sadder than people in their 20's and 30's toiling at some job, saving for their 'retirement'.  The epitomy of our mad culture.

You belong in a f***ing nuthouse.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Might I point out that even though my views may not be common, most people my age are liberal anyway, so you can't say paying your own way makes you conservative.

[John Dibble]

Richius seems to think he's quite a bit smarter than he really is.

The same can be said for opebo.

[angus]

Well, when the current "liberal" position is to sue telemarketing firms as a primary source of income, it's rather difficult not to, wouldn't you say?  In any case, the only liberal being bashed here seems to be able to take for himself just fine.

I'm more talking about Richius and dazzleman, neither of whom seem to miss a chance to profess how evil liberals are.  You know, stuff like...

Smart people are conservative.

and his "liberalism is a mental disorder", stolen straight from Michael Savage.

yeah, I thought about all that as soon as I posted but I was too lazy to edit.  Also, I'm guilty of projecting here, which is a bit hypocritical since I always bitch about that sort of thing.  Still, in my own experience, and of those with whom I have had discussions, the Left-to-Right progression is normal.  I was at one time a dues paying member of various parties, including the Massachusetts Revolutionary Workers Party and the Socialist Party of Texas, and it coincided with my youth and relative poverty.  Nowadays I have several years liquidity and can generally afford to do the things I like, so long as the government stays out of my way, so Leftism/Authoritarianism doesn't seem as attractive as Rightism/Freedom does to me.  I'm still a bit mystified about the comments regarding changing positions on social, or "wedge" issues, which do not correlate to Left/Right, which is economic.  20 years ago I was against capital punishment.  Today I'm against capital punishment.  20 years ago I was a huge proponent of gay rights, and even attended an informal "union" between two friends in the early 90s long before this became a focus issue, and I"m still a proponent of gay rights.  20 years ago I supported decriminalization of things like prostitution and the distribution/use of mary jane, and I'm still on that side.  Seems like most of the people I know come to these positions from deeply held moral values (I know I do) and these don't change due to economic circumstance the way the strictly Left/Right issues do. 

Anyway, Gabu, when the lead post in the topic starts out defining "liberalism" (and we'll assume "american liberalism" here and not true liberalism) as a mental disorder, then you have to suffer some liberal-bashing.  Hey, start a thread on the same topic, but bias it differently, by calling Laissez-Faire a mental disorder, and see what you get.  I'm sure you'd get a fair share of Reaganomics bashers, don't you think?  But, biased or not, it's an interesting topic.  I'm learning, for example, that some people actually become more socialistic as they grow older.  While this is superficially counterintuitive to me, those who claim to have made the journey in that direction have, with the exception of opebo, generally given sound considerations to their changes of mind.  James42 made the point about checking the excesses of consumerism and corporatism (I'm paraphrasing) that I hadn't thought about.  Makes sense.  At least it makes no less sense than the usual explanations for going the other way.

I see a new and inaccurate post has been added by Born on the Floor.  Actually, people your age are far less leftist than people about 10 to 40 years older.  This is a verifiable fact.  Galbraith is in his 90s now, and simply hasn't the stamina to keep up his proponence of Keynesianism, and that's a big part of the reason.  And the selling of the Ownership Society is working.  I'm not claiming it's the right answer, and I'll admit my approach is purely subjective, and that Keynes/Galbraith were right on target in their time, but your post is simply inaccurate.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

What age bracket voted most heavily for Kerry?

[angus]

What age bracket voted most heavily for Kerry?

not that this is a relevant point, but that age bracket that is likely to have the least command of Capital is the one.  You know that.  There's no reason to ask that question.  Get your mind out of the gutter.  What you're doing now is not just done by Democrats, and I know that Republicans and Libertarians and all the rest are guilty of doing the same thing, and I don't whether it's intentional or your ability to synthesize information is really so limited, but that point is not valid supporting statement.  IF you'd like to try to argue your post based on such triviality, it can be done, but you'd need to do the homework.  Get data showing what percentages of old, middle, young voters voted for various candidates for each presidential election from about 1960 to 2000, also make sure you understand the changing superficial qualities of the political parties over that time and work that into your analysis.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

well yes there is the income issue, but we were where most of the "ABB" screaming was coming from. Why are college campuses known as such hotbeds of extreme leftism?

[angus]

well yes there is the income issue, but we were where most of the "ABB" screaming was coming from. Why are college campuses known as such hotbeds of extreme leftism?

Now I think that's a good question, and one that I've thought about often.  Moreover it's beyond the scope of this thread and probably deserves its own (and in fact has had its own several times), but my thoughts on the issue may be gleaned from my previous posts. 

Let's be clear here.  I think we may be miscommunicating just a bit, and I'm not picking on you, but I think I'm thinking in terms of "generations" and you're thinking in terms of age.  Yes, it will always be the case that at any given cross-section in the Space-Time Continuum, those who have the least experience and the least capital and the least to lose will be more likely to support revolution, change, leftism, anti-incumbancy, and generally Liberalism (in the American sense).  No argument there.  That observation generally holds across generational, ethnic, and national boundaries.  Generally.  I'm saying that if you compare the Left/Right domestic policy views, based on polling data, for a given age demographic from various eras for the period beginning in about 1940 and follow it up to now, you will convince yourself that that the current teeny-boppers see a smaller, not greater, role for government than in the past.  Yes, I know that in-migration from China and Latin America skews things a bit, and various other parameters must be considered as well, but it's common knowledge, and in fact is mentioned quite often in WaPo, WSJ, Time, Hardball, you name it, that the current generation is far more economically conservative than their fathers were, by and large, at each succeeding stage.

[Inverted Things]

You and BRTD are exemplary models of how laziness stems from liberalism.  No offense.  Life isn't some hedonistic cruise.  Life is about work and accomplishing something.

Life is about the pursuit of happiness.

Personally, I find that I like being happy. Therefore all my plans should result in an optimal combination of being happy now and being happy in the future.

Pure hedonism doesn't work for me, since I don't have the money to support it. It would certainly result in me being happy now, but would be a huge detriment to being happy in the future.

I have been the occasional victim of deep depressions. Keeping busy, whether at a job or school or hobby, is basically the only way to keep these depressions away. This works out excellently, as I don't get depressed, and I get some money to make me happy in the future.

If BRTD and Opebo find their happiness without working, all the power to them. Why does it matter if they don't work?

[angus]

I agree with that too.  I disagree with the precise statement that life is about work and accomplishment, but then I wasn't raised with the Protestant Work Ethic.  That's a back-east thing anyway, and I've always enjoyed the more relaxed corporate schedules of CA, TX, and the South and Midwest, compared to the high-stress 50+ hour norms of New England and the mid-atlantic anyway. 

I know I argue with you about some specific issues, but you seem like a kind and sincere man, and I wish for you happiness.  So I'm also glad to hear you like being happy.  I especially like the first sentence.  I think we all need to step back and smell the roses sometimes.  Oh, you know I'm chomping at the bit to post an appropriate mullet-rock lyric here, but I'll resist the urge and simply say that yours is a wonderful view, since it also contains a grain of the "Live and Let Live" philosophy of alcoholics anonymous, amsterdammers, artists, and angus.

[Richard]

If BRTD and Opebo find their happiness without working, all the power to them. Why does it matter if they don't work?

Because in general, people that don't work, get tax dollars in form of welfare!!  Or they feed on charities like parasites!

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Except I do work and don't live off welfare. My point is that it's not worth it to get a very stressful job that pays more since I have no desire to buy a huge SUV, a suburban McMansion, or all that other garbage rich people buy.

[migrendel]

I'd just like to say that I've never taken a dime off the federal government that didn't come as a service that we all receive. However, I realize that the hand I have been dealt is much better than most people, and I don't begrudge any poor person who benefits from my taxes.

And Richius, you're probably the most boring non-hetero who ever walked the face of the earth.