German federal election (September 18, 2005)

[CARLHAYDEN]

I get the impression from my friends still in Germany that Schroeder is edging away Chirac and his sociopathic hatred of the United States.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Because to be perceived as a Bush supporter kills your electoral prospects at once and for all times.

Oh, yes, that.

Yes, that one. Considering how extremely close the 2002 election here was, it isn´t too far-fetched to assume that Stoiber could have actually won... had Al Gore (and not Bush) been in the White House!

You may blame the East Germans, you may blame North Rhine-Westphalia... or you simply may blame Florida.

I'll just blame knee-jerk anti-Americanism as usual.

I´m not sure. That´s perhaps a too simple explanation, considering the ongoing rockstar-like popularity Bill Clinton has here, which is sometimes even beyond my comprehension. But I assume that Clinton is seen as a symbol for the "good old times" (before Bush), when the USA were still "cool". In a way this leads to an excessive idealization and glorification of Clinton in Germany, which makes him better than he actually was/is. Just my little theory.

But it isn´t simply "anti-Americanism". Germans despise Bush... personally. This doesn´t mean that there´s no anti-Americanism at all in Germany, but simple antipathy against the person (and politics) of George W. Bush are sometimes (mis)interpreted as general anti-Americanism.

[Middle-aged Europe]

I get the impression from my friends still in Germany that Schroeder is edging away Chirac and his sociopathic hatred of the United States.

No, I wouldn´t say so. I think Schröder himself maintains neither very positive nor very negative feelings towards the USA or even Bush. It´s just a strategy. He´s just doing what he thinks will raise his chances to get re-elected. This has nothing to do with emotions, but with cold logic. "Action: criticize Bush in public appearances; effect: poll numbers will raise a percent or two; conclusion: action will help me to keep my job."

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Because to be perceived as a Bush supporter kills your electoral prospects at once and for all times.

Oh, yes, that.

Yes, that one. Considering how extremely close the 2002 election here was, it isn´t too far-fetched to assume that Stoiber could have actually won... had Al Gore (and not Bush) been in the White House!

You may blame the East Germans, you may blame North Rhine-Westphalia... or you simply may blame Florida.

I'll just blame knee-jerk anti-Americanism as usual.

I´m not sure. That´s perhaps a too simple explanation, considering the ongoing rockstar-like popularity Bill Clinton has here, which is sometimes even beyond my comprehension. But I assume that Clinton is seen as a symbol for the "good old times" (before Bush), when the USA were still "cool". In a way this leads to an excessive idealization and glorification of Clinton in Germany, which makes him better than he actually was/is. Just my little theory.

But it isn´t simply "anti-Americanism". Germans despise Bush... personally. This doesn´t mean that there´s no anti-Americanism at all in Germany, but simple antipathy against the person (and politics) of George W. Bush are sometimes (mis)interpreted as general anti-Americanism.

That's what I've been saying for a long time. 90% of the time things conservatives claim are signs of "anti-AMericanism" are really just anti-Bush.

[WMS]

Because to be perceived as a Bush supporter kills your electoral prospects at once and for all times.

Oh, yes, that.

Yes, that one. Considering how extremely close the 2002 election here was, it isn´t too far-fetched to assume that Stoiber could have actually won... had Al Gore (and not Bush) been in the White House!

You may blame the East Germans, you may blame North Rhine-Westphalia... or you simply may blame Florida.

I'll just blame knee-jerk anti-Americanism as usual.

I´m not sure. That´s perhaps a too simple explanation, considering the ongoing rockstar-like popularity Bill Clinton has here, which is sometimes even beyond my comprehension. But I assume that Clinton is seen as a symbol for the "good old times" (before Bush), when the USA were still "cool". In a way this leads to an excessive idealization and glorification of Clinton in Germany, which makes him better than he actually was/is. Just my little theory.

That sounds about right regarding Clinton. "Yay, an American without any of that pesky non-European 'morality' stuff! We love him!"

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Maybe, maybe not. Some from column A, some from column B. That whole despisement bit is insane from my perspective - I may disagree with Bush a fair amount (especially on economic policy) but I don't hate the guy. My insanity theory does tend to be bolstered by the fact that Germany (and France, Russia, Belgium, Luxembourg, Greece, and so forth) went to such lengths to defend a regime as despicable as Saddam Hussein's. It's one thing to not go along with the Americans; it's another to work to actively block the United States. Of course, to take a cheap shot, given the number of secret economic development contracts Saddam's regime signed with German (and French, Russian, etc.) companies [to take place once they had all gotten those pesky sanctions out of the way], I'm not surprised Germany (and France, Russia, etc.) got so upset once those wacky Americans came and ruined everything.

[minionofmidas]

"Went to such lengths"...look at your own camp, mister.

[WMS]

"Went to such lengths"...look at your own camp, mister.

Are you referring to previous support for Saddam by the U.S. (realpolitique mixed with economic BS - and it was Republicans anyway so I can be critical without being hypocritical ), or something else? Yes, the Bush Admin very much wanted to take out Saddam's regime, for various reasons (geopolitical location to pressure Iraq's neighbors to act vs. Al Qaida - the most successful goal; show of strength in the Arab World - only partially successful due to spectacular blunders in postwar planning; WMD - great intel job by everyone, foreign and domestic agencies alike ; moral/humanitarian - yes, they really did despise Saddam's regime and wanted to end it, but this was not the primary reason [see geopolitical location above], somewhat successful; err, maybe the oil, although there were much easier ways to get the oil than this). It turned into a giant geopolitical game between the U.S. and its opponents - there was no way that Russia, China, France, Germany, and the other hostiles would ever sign on to this no matter how many UN resolutions were passed, since their goal was to deliver a defeat to U.S. power no matter what the consequences. Thus everyone pretended to try to work out an impossible deal.

And my snarky point on a larger scale is that I find it highly hypocritical for many anti-war countries to use moral arguments against U.S. intervention in Iraq, because between the supercorrupt oil-for-food program and Saddam's secret economic deals it's quite clear that morality had very little to do with opposing the U.S. Now, individual anti-war people may have moral reasons for opposing this, but the big players didn't.

[minionofmidas]

"Went to such lengths"...look at your own camp, mister.

Are you referring to previous support for Saddam by the U.S. (realpolitique mixed with economic BS - and it was Republicans anyway so I can be critical without being hypocritical ), or something else? Yes, the Bush Admin very much wanted to take out Saddam's regime, for various reasons (geopolitical location to pressure Iraq's neighbors to act vs. Al Qaida - the most successful goal; show of strength in the Arab World - only partially successful due to spectacular blunders in postwar planning; WMD - great intel job by everyone, foreign and domestic agencies alike ; moral/humanitarian - yes, they really did despise Saddam's regime and wanted to end it, but this was not the primary reason [see geopolitical location above], somewhat successful; err, maybe the oil, although there were much easier ways to get the oil than this). It turned into a giant geopolitical game between the U.S. and its opponents - there was no way that Russia, China, France, Germany, and the other hostiles would ever sign on to this no matter how many UN resolutions were passed, since their goal was to deliver a defeat to U.S. power no matter what the consequences. Thus everyone pretended to try to work out an impossible deal.

This, while written from a pretty partisan point of view, is not wrong at all. Well, some bits are.

[WMS]

"Went to such lengths"...look at your own camp, mister.

Are you referring to previous support for Saddam by the U.S. (realpolitique mixed with economic BS - and it was Republicans anyway so I can be critical without being hypocritical ), or something else? Yes, the Bush Admin very much wanted to take out Saddam's regime, for various reasons (geopolitical location to pressure Iraq's neighbors to act vs. Al Qaida - the most successful goal; show of strength in the Arab World - only partially successful due to spectacular blunders in postwar planning; WMD - great intel job by everyone, foreign and domestic agencies alike ; moral/humanitarian - yes, they really did despise Saddam's regime and wanted to end it, but this was not the primary reason [see geopolitical location above], somewhat successful; err, maybe the oil, although there were much easier ways to get the oil than this). It turned into a giant geopolitical game between the U.S. and its opponents - there was no way that Russia, China, France, Germany, and the other hostiles would ever sign on to this no matter how many UN resolutions were passed, since their goal was to deliver a defeat to U.S. power no matter what the consequences. Thus everyone pretended to try to work out an impossible deal.

This, while written from a pretty partisan point of view, is not wrong at all. Well, some bits are.

Well, I am an American nationalist...

And I'm going off of information I've run across over the past few years. This explanation seemed pretty realist to me...so what parts do you disagree with? THREAD HIJACK WARNING!

[minionofmidas]

Supreme court deciding thursday. "Sources" said (about a week ago) to expect a 6-2 or maybe 5-2-1 abstention ruling in favor of new elections. But I'd just like to see the look on everybody's face if there's no new elections.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Apparently there's been flooding in parts of Germany

[minionofmidas]

Apparently there's been flooding in parts of Germany

Yep, pretty severe too. It's just Bavaria though - no votes to be gained probably.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Damn, Lewis was only a few minutes faster than me.




Anyway, I´m bored, so here is some useless statistical data:


A total of 25 political parties are running for the Bundestag. Of those, the SPD, the Greens, the FDP, the Left Party, and the MLPD (Marxist-Leninist Party of Germany ) will be on the ballot in all sixteen states.

As usual, the CDU is running in all states except Bavaria, while the CSU is only on the ballot in this single state. The NPD will also be on the ballot in all states except Baden-Württemberg.

The most parties are running in North Rhine-Westphalia (16), the fewest in Schleswig-Holstein (8 ). In addition to the CSU there are six parties who will be on the ballot in only a single state each.

The prize for the most arcane party clearly goes to the "Alliance for Health, Peace, and Social Justice" (AGFG). As far as I understood their TV ad, this group claims that a conspiracy consisting of the pharmaceutical industry, the government, as well as the media (notably BILD) is trying to hold back and discredit alternative healing methods for cancer, AIDS etc. in order to make more profit with expensive drugs and pharmaceuticals. The AGFG is only on the ballot in Saxony.

[minionofmidas]

Sounds like Tobias Rath set that group up.

I wonder how the MLPD managed to collect 2000 signatures in every state - and where they raised the cash for the little posters they've been putting up all over Frankfurt over the weekend. I haven't heard of them for years. (One of their posters has "Critizising Capitalists? Vote the Original!" and a pic of Karl Marx)

[minionofmidas]

Oh, and the Supreme Court has just ruled against that abovementioned suit to get the no. of signatures lowered.
In Hessen, this hit the PBC (Party of Bible-True Christians) worst, as they'd failed the required no of signatures pretty narrowly.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Sounds like Tobias Rath set that group up.

Do you mean Matthias Rath? Because this was apparently the guy featured in their TV ad. He´s also listed as the party´s deputy chairman on their website.

I wonder how the MLPD managed to collect 2000 signatures in every state - and where they raised the cash for the little posters they've been putting up all over Frankfurt over the weekend. I haven't heard of them for years.

Strangely enough, the MLPD was the second party (after the SPD) who started with putting up posters here... weeks before the FDP, the CDU, or the Left Party! Do they have financial and logistical support by North Korean or Cuban intelligence agencies?

(One of their posters has "Critizising Capitalists? Vote the Original!" and a pic of Karl Marx)

I like the poster with Lenin even better.

[minionofmidas]

Sounds like Tobias Rath set that group up.

Do you mean Matthias Rath? Because this was apparently the guy featured in their TV ad. He´s also listed as the party´s deputy chairman on their website.

Maybe it's his brother. Or maybe I'm remembering the name wrong. I'll google it.

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Strangely enough, the MLPD was the second party (after the SPD) who started with putting up posters here... weeks before the FDP, the CDU, or the Left Party! Do they have financial and logistical support by North Korean or Cuban intelligence agencies? [/quote]The FDP has had posters up here for weeks. Apparently that was a happy coincidence. They had a membership drive with posters planned for late july anyways, and the election just happened to come along.

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I like the poster with Lenin even better.
[/quote]Vertrauen ist gut, Kontrolle ist besser.

[minionofmidas]

I've checked. His name is Matthias.

[WMS]

Supreme court deciding thursday. "Sources" said (about a week ago) to expect a 6-2 or maybe 5-2-1 abstention ruling in favor of new elections. But I'd just like to see the look on everybody's face if there's no new elections.

If there's no new elections, the look on my face will be:

[minionofmidas]

Supreme court deciding thursday. "Sources" said (about a week ago) to expect a 6-2 or maybe 5-2-1 abstention ruling in favor of new elections. But I'd just like to see the look on everybody's face if there's no new elections.

If there's no new elections, the look on my face will be:

7-1 verdict for fresh elections.

[Middle-aged Europe]

A small correction about my last info:

The federal election board overturned the state election board of Baden-Württemberg regarding its decision to strike the NPD off the ballot.

The following parties will now be on the ballot in all sixteen states:
--> SPD
--> CDU/CSU (CDU in all states except Bavaria, CSU in Bavaria only)
--> Greens
--> FDP
--> Left Party
--> NPD
--> MLPD

Other changes were not made by the federal election board.

[WMS]

Supreme court deciding thursday. "Sources" said (about a week ago) to expect a 6-2 or maybe 5-2-1 abstention ruling in favor of new elections. But I'd just like to see the look on everybody's face if there's no new elections.

If there's no new elections, the look on my face will be:

7-1 verdict for fresh elections.

Yay! There's still an election to follow!

[Middle-aged Europe]

English site on the election (news etc.):

http://www.dw-world.de/election05

[Middle-aged Europe]

[CO-OWL]

Lies have short legs...