Should Israel = "Jewish state", OR not give preference to any ethnicity/religion

[Blue3]

Should Israel remain a "Jewish state"

or

Should it become a state that does not legally give preference to any particular ethnicity or religion (more similar to the United States)

?

[Famous Mortimer]

This is a mildly loaded question. Although not as loaded as some on the Zionist left would like to admit.

Generally the Zionist left, and even the Zionist centre and some of the Zionist right (officially at least), don't see the term "Jewish state" as necessitating preference for Jews. It's more incidental. The state is Jewish because Jews live there and are currently constitute a majority. Of course, maintaining that majority requires giving preferences to Jews when it comes to immigration but some would shrug that off as a means to an end or...something.

[Blue3]

This is a mildly loaded question. Although not as loaded as some on the Zionist left would like to admit.

Generally the Zionist left, and even the Zionist centre and some of the Zionist right (officially at least), don't see the term "Jewish state" as necessitating preference for Jews. It's more incidental. The state is Jewish because Jews live there and are currently constitute a majority. Of course, maintaining that majority requires giving preferences to Jews when it comes to immigration but some would shrug that off as a means to an end or...something.

They try to maintain the Jewish majority.

Orthodox Judaism (the most conservative type of Judaism) holds direct influence over their legal system, deciding who is allowed to get married in Israel, and who counts as a Jew.

Dark-skinned African Jews face discrimination, some even sterilized.

Arab-Israeli citizens face discrimination. Prime Minister Netanyahu, in his most recent re-election campaign, complained about them gaining too much of a voice recently and how horrible that was so vote for him.

Jimmy Cater and others have called it an "apartheid state," like how South Africa was.

There are many other worrying signs.

Israel demands its Muslim/Arab/Persian neighbors recognize it as a "Jewish state," saying it won't sign a peace treaty with any who don't. So it's obviously important to the Israeli government.




I believe in a world where no state gives preferences to religion, ethnicity or any other similar demographic. Like how it legally is now in the United States (though we still have problems with it, our law is on the right side). We support Israel in the United States so much, saying it should be a beacon of hope in the region. But I don't see anything hopeful in a country that declares itself a "(fill in the blank with an ethnicity/religion) state." Israel is one of those. Israel should be better than that. Better integrating all people into Israel as equals under the law would lead to a better chance at peace.

[Famous Mortimer]

This is a mildly loaded question. Although not as loaded as some on the Zionist left would like to admit.

Generally the Zionist left, and even the Zionist centre and some of the Zionist right (officially at least), don't see the term "Jewish state" as necessitating preference for Jews. It's more incidental. The state is Jewish because Jews live there and are currently constitute a majority. Of course, maintaining that majority requires giving preferences to Jews when it comes to immigration but some would shrug that off as a means to an end or...something.

They try to maintain the Jewish majority.

Orthodox Judaism (the most conservative type of Judaism) holds direct influence over their legal system, deciding who is allowed to get married in Israel, and who counts as a Jew.

So does Islamic law.

[ag]

You know, there are about 200 countries on this planet. I do not care whether Nepal claims to be a Hindu state (no more, I believe, but who cares), or Israel claims to be Jewish. As long as they keep the discrimination of minorities within reasonable limits and do not engage in ethnic cleansing, it is up to the Israelis. Within its borders, Israel is reasonably democratic and gives a non-negligible degree of the protection of the law to all its citizens. Of course, if I were an Israeli I would very much identify with the minorities: they are not treated the way I would like minorities treated in my country. But Israel is not my country, and they do not eat their non-Jewish citizens for breakfast: good enough in my book.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

In terms of citizenship and immigration, priority must continue to be given to Jews. That is the express purpose of the state - a refuge for the Jewish people. In terms of how the country's laws govern its citizens and residents, though, it should be a secular state with equal rights to all.

[Blue3]

This is a mildly loaded question. Although not as loaded as some on the Zionist left would like to admit.

Generally the Zionist left, and even the Zionist centre and some of the Zionist right (officially at least), don't see the term "Jewish state" as necessitating preference for Jews. It's more incidental. The state is Jewish because Jews live there and are currently constitute a majority. Of course, maintaining that majority requires giving preferences to Jews when it comes to immigration but some would shrug that off as a means to an end or...something.

They try to maintain the Jewish majority.

Orthodox Judaism (the most conservative type of Judaism) holds direct influence over their legal system, deciding who is allowed to get married in Israel, and who counts as a Jew.

So does Islamic law.

And I don't think they should be either. But people tend to turn a blind eye when it comes to Israel. Is "ISIS/Iran/Taliban does it too!" really a justification you want to use? Does that make it right? If Israel isn't better than its neighbors in this, why should we support them so much more? Why not support, say, Jordan and Lebanon in the same way we support Israel? Why continue to treat Israel as special?

In terms of citizenship and immigration, priority must continue to be given to Jews. That is the express purpose of the state - a refuge for the Jewish people. In terms of how the country's laws govern its citizens and residents, though, it should be a secular state with equal rights to all.

But should it be? Why must there be a "Jewish state"? Wouldn't a country, and a world, where all people are treated equally regardless of their ethnicity or religion be better refuge and safe haven? They know what it's like to be treated unfairly, so shouldn't they treat others like how they want to be treated... how they wished they were treated in countries where they were in the minority?

You know, there are about 200 countries on this planet. I do not care whether Nepal claims to be a Hindu state (no more, I believe, but who cares), or Israel claims to be Jewish. As long as they keep the discrimination of minorities within reasonable limits and do not engage in ethnic cleansing, it is up to the Israelis. Within its borders, Israel is reasonably democratic and gives a non-negligible degree of the protection of the law to all its citizens. Of course, if I were an Israeli I would very much identify with the minorities: they are not treated the way I would like minorities treated in my country. But Israel is not my country, and they do not eat their non-Jewish citizens for breakfast: good enough in my book.

But shouldn't we try to have a better, fairer world? It's understandable to accept that things aren't perfect and probably won't become perfect anytime soon, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't keep trying to make things better. That doesn't mean we should accept things as they are. That doesn't mean we shouldn't at least think things *should* be different.

[Frozen Sky Ever Why]

Israel should obviously continue to be a Jewish state. To suggest otherwise is nonsense. Jews are being attacked constantly by the Muslim invasion into Europe, and other whites blame the immigration problem on a "Jewish conspiracy". With all this going on and likely to get worse, you clowns don't think the Jews should be allowed to have 20,000 miles of space just for them?

[Blue3]

Israel should obviously continue to be a Jewish state. To suggest otherwise is nonsense. Jews are being attacked constantly by the Muslim invasion into Europe, and other whites blame the immigration problem on a "Jewish conspiracy". With all this going on and likely to get worse, you clowns don't think the Jews should be allowed to have 20,000 miles of space just for them?

So a refugee crisis caused by ISIS is now a "Muslim invasion into Europe," and some "whites" blame it on a Jewish conspiracy.... so this means "the Jews should be allowed to have 20,000 miles of space just for them" and "to suggest otherwise is nonsense"??

Zero logic there.

[Frozen Sky Ever Why]

Israel should obviously continue to be a Jewish state. To suggest otherwise is nonsense. Jews are being attacked constantly by the Muslim invasion into Europe, and other whites blame the immigration problem on a "Jewish conspiracy". With all this going on and likely to get worse, you clowns don't think the Jews should be allowed to have 20,000 miles of space just for them?

So a refugee crisis caused by ISIS is now a "Muslim invasion into Europe," and some "whites" blame it on a Jewish conspiracy.... so this means "the Jews should be allowed to have 20,000 miles of space just for them" and "to suggest otherwise is nonsense"??

Zero logic there.

Muslims were invading Europe long before the refugee crisis (most aren't actual refugees, but that's another issue). Jews are the #1 target of Muslim violence in europe which is increasing rapidly. Practically every individual who is against the mass immigration blames Jews for it's occurrence, anti-antisemitism is rising heavily these days due to conspiracy theories. Why should Jews, who are increasingly being hated by all other groups in these countries, not be allowed to have a homeland just for them, especially one which is so small? Is that too much to ask for?

[Vosem]

Israel should remain a "Jewish state", but it's important to understand what is meant by the term "Jewish state" -- a state in which Jews form a majority, to which Jews can always flee, and in which the culture is based on Jewish values, such as fairness and justice. The term "Jewish state" not only does not mean intolerance towards other groups that live in Israel, it rejects it.

[Comrade Funk]

Israel should remain a "Jewish state", but it's important to understand what is meant by the term "Jewish state" -- a state in which Jews form a majority, to which Jews can always flee, and in which the culture is based on Jewish values, such as fairness and justice. The term "Jewish state" not only does not mean intolerance towards other groups that live in Israel, it rejects it.

Then Israel is failing and needs to be fixed because it is not fair to other cultures (including different sects of Judaism/Jews) and it is on the way to a binational state.

[Frozen Sky Ever Why]

The majority of people who voted in this poll either:

A.Have no concept of the degree of antisemitism existent in the world today, or...

B.Simply do not care about Jews.

[ag]

The majority of people who voted in this poll either:

A.Have no concept of the degree of antisemitism existent in the world today, or...

B.Simply do not care about Jews.

I did not vote in this poll (since I do not care) and I am Jewish. However, does the fact that nobody is advocating a Rohingya or a Cham state indicate that we all here are ignorant or do not care about the Rohingya/Chams. Though, upon some thinking, it, probably, does.

Anyway, Israelis can do whatever they like here: my only objection is to them claiming they somehow do this for my sake.

[Angel of Death]

The majority of people who voted in this poll either:

A.Have no concept of the degree of antisemitism existent in the world today, or...

B.Simply do not care about Jews.

C. Don't believe two wrongs make a right.

[MalaspinaGold]

Ideally, Israel would be a Jewish state the way Britain is an Anglican state.
Though to specifically answer the question, the obvious answer is "both".

[Famous Mortimer]

The more I think about this, the more the answer has to be that Israel should not be a Jewish state.

People who give the Jewish state answer are divided into two groups, the right who are theocrats and/or racists and the left who insist that the term is harmless because it's basically meaningless.

But if it's meaningless, why even bother?

[Beezer]

Israel is the only Jewish state in the world, hence it should obviously keep Judaism at its ideological core. I mean if Israel wasn't Jewish, what would be the point in it existing at all?

[Famous Mortimer]

Israel is the only Jewish state in the world, hence it should obviously keep Judaism at its ideological core. I mean if Israel wasn't Jewish, what would be the point in it existing at all?

To govern the people that live in the area.

[ag]

Should Israel remain a "Jewish state"

Having thought about it, the question has no logically possible answer. Israel cannot "remain" a Jewish state: it has never been one in any reasonable sense of the word. Making it into a Jewish state would require a radical transformation, which most Israelis would abhor. Actually, personally I might be more comfortable with a Jewish Israel than I am with what is there now, but I am also a democrat, and would never think of forcing such a preference on an uwilling society.

[Figueira]

This is a mildly loaded question. Although not as loaded as some on the Zionist left would like to admit.

Generally the Zionist left, and even the Zionist centre and some of the Zionist right (officially at least), don't see the term "Jewish state" as necessitating preference for Jews. It's more incidental. The state is Jewish because Jews live there and are currently constitute a majority. Of course, maintaining that majority requires giving preferences to Jews when it comes to immigration but some would shrug that off as a means to an end or...something.

Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding you, but that sounds inherently contradictory. "We're giving preference to Jews, in order to maintain a state that just coincidentally happens to be majority-Jewish, and doesn't give preference to Jews at all."

Anyway, I'm fine with a state that happens to be majority Jewish, but they shouldn't try to maintain that by restricting immigration. And before anyone accuses me of being a self-loathing Jew, I fell the same way about other ethnicity-based states.

[ag]

This is a useless discussion. Israel is what it is, because it was designed as an imitation of a European nation-state. I have no love lost for the European nation state model, but, in this respect, there is not much special about Israel. They have, more or less successfully, created an Israeli (Jewish) nation and are no more willing to change that model than any other similar state. Within the model, they are not particularly horrible. Of course, the basic problem with the model as applied to Israel was that they, actually, had a pre-existing Arab population, which, whatever the attempts to ignore it, is not getting any less real. Unfortunately for Israelis, they were slightly later than the Turks in getting to it, and by the 1960s massive ethnic cleansing ("population exchange") was no longer internationally viewed as kosher.  Hence the strange status of the occupied territories and their population. But within its internationally recognized borders Israel is no more or less ridiculous than France, Turkey or Poland.

If only they would leave the Jews outside Israel alone!

[Torie]

OK, Israel gives preference to Jewish immigration. What other specific policies are defensible, that give a preference to Jews living in Israel as compared to others, as part of it being a "Jewish" state? One poster mentioned "citizenship," suggesting perhaps that non Jewish legal residents should be denied citizenship, and of course, the right to vote. Implementing that would rapidly put the country into the former South Africa category, with ominous implications.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I agree that this is a very... um... strange discussion. States are rarely just random lines on a map that happen to have governments as much as Atlas Forum may wish otherwise. Even North American ones aren't, even if they now officially pretend to be (witness the appeal of Mr Donald Trump). And as for the Middle East... most states in the region are either majoritarian ethnic (and sectarian divisions are essentially also ethnic ones in the region) states or are absolutely dominated by a particular minority. Or have ceased to exist as functional states. This is also (and of course) the pattern in Europe, though without the middle category. And notably in the Middle East today it is that middle category that is collapsing with a certain grim finality into the last.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

ag has a good point. Israel is a country where you can legally serve and buy pork products on Yom Kippur so it's not a true "Jewish state".