The Collapse of Cultural Catholicism

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2011/01/the-collapse-of-cultural-catholicism.html

SheryWeddell at the St Catherine of Siena Institute reports that 32% of Americans raised Catholic abandon the identity altogether by their mid twenties. An additional 38% retain the identity but rarely practice their faith. 30% of those who call themselves Catholic attend Mass only once a month. On a given Sunday only about 15.6% of American Catholics attend Mass.

The guy writing it is a priest who converted to Catholicism so his spin later is clearly biased, but after finding this I took note of the states listed. It's four years old too, so the 32% number is probably even higher today. The last Pew implied it's likely above 40% now.

So I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that not all of that 32-40% live in the Upper Midwest or are part of the "scene".

[Famous Mortimer]

This is just an extension of collapse of White ethnic identity (which I think is a good thing, by the way). Normal White young Americans are assimilated/self actualized and think of themselves as just being individuals, not Irish or Polish (or Catholic). The only people who cling to such identities are conservatives who have no ambition in life other than to breed.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

You're right - a large chunk are likely Hispanic as well. However it is not the case in the Mid-Atlantic. I couldn't believe how Catholic it got when I moved to Pennsylvania. Even more than New York where the Catholics are being forced out. I don't care if they go to church or not. The whole area is bathed in its Catholic identity. The New Jersey suburbs were part of where it is getting crushed (at least with whites), and I am ecstatic to be out of there.

Philly (and to an extent New York) are where it remains strong and they are also the parts with immobile white ethnics.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

If true, RIP cultural Catholicism, FF.

I wonder if this has to do with the jettisoning of anything worth taking cultural pride in in many Catholic parishes in favor of hand-raising and Marty Haugen 'music'.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I doubt seeing as how "cultural Catholics" don't go to Mass.

[DC Al Fine]

If true, RIP cultural Catholicism, FF.

I wonder if this has to do with the jettisoning of anything worth taking cultural pride in in many Catholic parishes in favor of hand-raising and Marty Haugen 'music'.

CCM is truly the solvent of the church. It dissolves A Capella Psalmody and Traditional Latin Mass alike

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I doubt seeing as how "cultural Catholics" don't go to Mass.

One can take vague pride in or maintain a vague sense of continuity with something one doesn't personally do.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I doubt seeing as how "cultural Catholics" don't go to Mass.

One can take vague pride in or maintain a vague sense of continuity with something one doesn't personally do.

So it's like public transit? 😇

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I doubt seeing as how "cultural Catholics" don't go to Mass.

One can take vague pride in or maintain a vague sense of continuity with something one doesn't personally do.

From what I've gathered, just about every ex-Catholic I know doesn't really care, it's all about women, gays and contraception. Any institution with views as backward on those issue is one that they don't want to associate with on any level whatsoever.

Yeah I know, south Minneapolis, liberal hipster land. But I think trying to downplay this as an issue or pretending that it's with a very small subset is a pretty obvious denial of reality and flies in the face of all polls too.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Yes, I know. It's worth asking what makes that worthy of a radical break and totum simul repudiation now, though, when previously such things were dealt with through 'normal' lapsing-but-continuing-to-feel-a-vague-connection. I don't think it's at all unreasonable to speculate about ways Catholic culture might have [Inks]ed up, since this is about people leaving, you know, cultural Catholicism.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

That strkes me as overthinking. More likely the fact that most people raised Catholic today grew up in a very assimilated environment, in a neighborhood with plenty of both Catholic and Protestant families, going to a public school with both people from Catholic and Protestant families, and thus its tough to see Catholicism as anything "special" or significantly different from any Protestant church that makes them more likely to identify after leaving than anyone who does so from a Protestant denomination. Hell probably at least 30-40% have at least one non-Catholic parent.

Like I've said many times, the notion that there were any major cultural differences or separation between the middle class Catholic and middle class Protestant families in the neighborhood I grew up in, or the kids from middle class Catholic and the kids from middle class Protestant families in my high school is something that I've found simply bizarre and I don't think anyone from my hometown or high school would disagree. In fact it wasn't even uncommon for people to de facto convert before they were even legal adults (in the sense of, "oh my best friend wasn't raised in the same denomination as I was but I think the youth group thing they're in is cool, so I'll go with them anyway")

[afleitch]

Yes, I know. It's worth asking what makes that worthy of a radical break and totum simul repudiation now, though, when previously such things were dealt with through 'normal' lapsing-but-continuing-to-feel-a-vague-connection. I don't think it's at all unreasonable to speculate about ways Catholic culture might have [Inks]ed up, since this is about people leaving, you know, cultural Catholicism.

I can speak from experience (family/town etc) that cultural Catholicism even without devotion is increasingly regarded as 'unhealthy' for family cohesion. Catholics whose family is everything to them (in part because of their Catholicism) can't 'set aside' people that don't fit Church ideology. Why baptise your child into that community if you love your gay brother? It's a huge disconnect, in that family for a lot of people is worth more than a community of faith.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

Yes, I know. It's worth asking what makes that worthy of a radical break and totum simul repudiation now, though, when previously such things were dealt with through 'normal' lapsing-but-continuing-to-feel-a-vague-connection. I don't think it's at all unreasonable to speculate about ways Catholic culture might have [Inks]ed up, since this is about people leaving, you know, cultural Catholicism.

I can speak from experience (family/town etc) that cultural Catholicism even without devotion is increasingly regarded as 'unhealthy' for family cohesion. Catholics whose family is everything to them (in part because of their Catholicism) can't 'set aside' people that don't fit Church ideology. Why baptise your child into that community if you love your gay brother? It's a huge disconnect, in that family for a lot of people is worth more than a community of faith.

What in the world?
When have Catholics EVER followed Church ideology? On any matter. They have no authority, and no one takes the rules seriously.

[afleitch]

Yes, I know. It's worth asking what makes that worthy of a radical break and totum simul repudiation now, though, when previously such things were dealt with through 'normal' lapsing-but-continuing-to-feel-a-vague-connection. I don't think it's at all unreasonable to speculate about ways Catholic culture might have [Inks]ed up, since this is about people leaving, you know, cultural Catholicism.

I can speak from experience (family/town etc) that cultural Catholicism even without devotion is increasingly regarded as 'unhealthy' for family cohesion. Catholics whose family is everything to them (in part because of their Catholicism) can't 'set aside' people that don't fit Church ideology. Why baptise your child into that community if you love your gay brother? It's a huge disconnect, in that family for a lot of people is worth more than a community of faith.

What in the world?
When have Catholics EVER followed Church ideology? On any matter. They have no authority, and no one takes the rules seriously.

Some have, some haven't. Those who haven't have often been able to ignore what the Church is saying or not saying, but there are an increasing number of essentially lapsed Catholics who are not simply ignoring it (as ignoring, means not acknowledging it, or engaging with the reasons why they find it uncomfortable) but making a point of acknowledging the Church's position, making a point of opposing it in their own circles and disassociating themselves from 'cultural Catholicism' as a result.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Yes, I know. It's worth asking what makes that worthy of a radical break and totum simul repudiation now, though, when previously such things were dealt with through 'normal' lapsing-but-continuing-to-feel-a-vague-connection. I don't think it's at all unreasonable to speculate about ways Catholic culture might have [Inks]ed up, since this is about people leaving, you know, cultural Catholicism.

I can speak from experience (family/town etc) that cultural Catholicism even without devotion is increasingly regarded as 'unhealthy' for family cohesion. Catholics whose family is everything to them (in part because of their Catholicism) can't 'set aside' people that don't fit Church ideology. Why baptise your child into that community if you love your gay brother? It's a huge disconnect, in that family for a lot of people is worth more than a community of faith.

What in the world?
When have Catholics EVER followed Church ideology? On any matter. They have no authority, and no one takes the rules seriously.

Dude, people renouncing Catholicsm and all aspects of Catholic identity here in 2012 due to the Church's big backing of the anti-gay marriage amendment was so prominent and widespread that it was mentioned in the Star Tribune.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

Yes, I know. It's worth asking what makes that worthy of a radical break and totum simul repudiation now, though, when previously such things were dealt with through 'normal' lapsing-but-continuing-to-feel-a-vague-connection. I don't think it's at all unreasonable to speculate about ways Catholic culture might have [Inks]ed up, since this is about people leaving, you know, cultural Catholicism.

I can speak from experience (family/town etc) that cultural Catholicism even without devotion is increasingly regarded as 'unhealthy' for family cohesion. Catholics whose family is everything to them (in part because of their Catholicism) can't 'set aside' people that don't fit Church ideology. Why baptise your child into that community if you love your gay brother? It's a huge disconnect, in that family for a lot of people is worth more than a community of faith.

What in the world?
When have Catholics EVER followed Church ideology? On any matter. They have no authority, and no one takes the rules seriously.

Dude, people renouncing Catholicsm and all aspects of Catholic identity here in 2012 due to the Church's big backing of the anti-gay marriage amendment was so prominent and widespread that it was mentioned in the Star Tribune.

Oh I'm sorry. I don't read that paper that talks extensively about my area.  We know this affects Minnesota.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Just saying that statement is kind of universal. And I highly doubt the "black hole" of "cultural Catholicism" is just Minnesota and the Dakotas, those don't account for enough for the polls. From what I've seen posters in the Pacific Northwest seem to not really be familiar with or big believers in "cultural Catholicism" either for example.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

Oh my gosh. This isn't that hard to figure out.


If there is another dominant culture in the area, they will obviously be overpowered and forced to assimilate. However, most Catholic groups tend to stay within their own community. They were not part of trekking across the country. They came later and had already trekked across half the world to get here. Why would they exist in large numbers in the PNW?? This is really common sense. Protestant groups were a) more mobile; and b) here first and thus able to settle the unsettled west when the opportunity arose. Italians and Irish came in the 21st century. We are new. We stayed in our own area of the country, the richest area and helped each other out in our own community to break through in spite of the discrimination from natives. Cultural Catholicism is only a thing on the east coast. We will see if it comes up in the Southwest later, but I don't fully expect it to.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

But as that map shows the Pacific Northwest has plenty of Germans, just like here. Many of whom were Catholic and a majority in many areas. And they immigrated pretty early too.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

But as that map shows the Pacific Northwest has plenty of Germans, just like here. Many of whom were Catholic and a majority in many areas. And they immigrated pretty early too.

You cant be serious. Germans aren't real Catholics. That isn't even remotely close to a national identity.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Based on what I remember reading in my "Sociology of Deviant Behavior" textbook's chapter on suicide, things're about to take a turn for the worst. Although, there are theories that a society with a high rater of suicide is better than one with a high rate of homicide (and that they complement each other), so maybe this country ain't doing so bad after all!

[RINO Tom]

This is just an extension of collapse of White ethnic identity (which I think is a good thing, by the way). Normal White young Americans are assimilated/self actualized and think of themselves as just being individuals, not Irish or Polish (or Catholic). The only people who cling to such identities are conservatives who have no ambition in life other than to breed.

What the f&ck?  That's just BS.  I know several liberal people (not to mention several conservative people who have more ambition than just breeding and, for that matter, more ambition than most liberal people I know) who are very proud of their ancestral family ethnicity.

[DC Al Fine]

This is just an extension of collapse of White ethnic identity (which I think is a good thing, by the way). Normal White young Americans are assimilated/self actualized and think of themselves as just being individuals, not Irish or Polish (or Catholic). The only people who cling to such identities are conservatives who have no ambition in life other than to breed.

What the f&ck?  That's just BS.  I know several liberal people (not to mention several conservative people who have more ambition than just breeding and, for that matter, more ambition than most liberal people I know) who are very proud of their ancestral family ethnicity.

Liberals can be bigots too. News at 11

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

But as that map shows the Pacific Northwest has plenty of Germans, just like here. Many of whom were Catholic and a majority in many areas. And they immigrated pretty early too.

You cant be serious. Germans aren't real Catholics.

....

Wait. So German-Americans who attend Mass weekly, actually go to regular confession, and pray the rosary regularly, etc. (Pretty common amongst olds in heavily German Midwestern towns) aren't real Catholics? Seriously?

Dude even I can see why that'd be a pretty offensive comment. Also you just said that the Catholic members of my extended family aren't Catholic either. Not something I'm personally offended by but if they knew...

Oh and what is this guy?

That isn't even remotely close to a national identity.

Depends on where. North Dakota has some towns that were majority German speaking within my lifetime. I don't think anyone would ever argue that New Ulm, MN isn't heavily influenced by German culture. St. Cloud definitely is too, even though today most people don't think of it as much besides "college town that isn't that far from the Twin Cities." Then there's those areas in Texas between Austin and San Antonio. Now in urban areas yeah, the only real German culture stuff in Minneapolis is Oktoberfest (aka an excuse to get drunk and act silly that even non-Germans go to), and a few ethnic German restaurants, and my hometown despite being named after Otto von Bismarck doesn't show a lot of blatant German culture and is pretty assimilated between that and the Scandinavians. And I suppose that's also true in the Pacific Northwest. But you can't say it's not true anywhere.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

Anyone is free to join the religion if they desire for whatever reason. However, Catholicism at its core must be attached to a cultural identity, especially in America. You may be somewhat right with Benedict as that he is from Bavaria which does have quite a few Catholics so it might have a local Catholic identity, but for descendants of immigrants to have an attachment to such a particular region of their home nation is odd. I understand Phil and myself and many others remain attached to Napoli, but that is a bit more unique in the sense that a huge portion of the immigrants are from there and neighboring towns. Even if descendants were to lose that eventually, they'd still have the national identity of Italy which remains Catholic. Germany is just a mush-up of a hundred different things in the center of Europe. It is a bit telling that Benedict is the only German pope since Martin Luther.

If someone from a non-Catholic lineage became Pope, I'd obviously fully support him or her as a spiritual leader, but they wouldn't be really Catholic in the same sense. Sure they'd be Catholic in faith, but they wouldn't be Catholic. Nothing to be offended about; it's just a fact.

Also, you chopped up my two statements when they relied on each other. Obviously German is a national identity. I meant Catholicism is not part of that identity.


To anticipate your next point, it is sad to see some of the younger Poles leaving in the areas by where you live, but they seem to be overpowered by the German identity seeing as they are more similar than most others. All northern European identities seem to either get overpowered by the other side of the heritage or blend together. Bill De Blasio is a good example of the former in spite of many of his childhood events that helped him to reach that conclusion. Heck, even I'm 1/4 or 1/8 Norwegian or whatever. I'd also be quite surprised if Libertas was fully Italian, but he embraces the Italian identity (and goes to Catholic mass as an atheist). As I stated earlier, it's an Italian/Irish-American thing primarily where it's an overpowering identity though it may extend to Hispanics and the French and as you point out, perhaps Native Bavarians. Surely others, that's not an exhaustive list.