Opinion of the phrase "Taxation is theft"?

[Zioneer]

So I've been arguing with an internet libertarian on facebook for a while, and he is convinced that taxation is theft, and has said so. Repeatedly. So I'd like to know everyone's thought on that particular phrase.

[BaconBacon96]

Obvious Horrible Phrase is obvious.

[Türkisblau]

Horrible and nonsensical talking point.

[Ebsy]

Hasn't he ever heard of the social contract?

[Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Obvious Horrible Phrase is obvious.

Horrible and nonsensical talking point.

[NewYorkExpress]

So how do these people expect to pay for roads, schools, military installations, food safety, etc... All paid for by taxes, all wouldn't exist with taxation.

[Orthogonian Society Treasurer]

So how do these people expect to pay for roads, schools, military installations, food safety, etc... All paid for by taxes, all wouldn't exist with taxation.

[Cory]

Obvious Horrible Phrase is obvious.

Horrible and nonsensical talking point.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Really annoying. Taxation isn't theft if you use the police, roads, schools, and so on. It is theft when your already taxed income is taxed again, thanks to the inheritance tax.

[TNF]

Not too far from the truth, but for reasons and qualifications that libertarians wouldn't accept.

The fact of the matter is that the state under capitalism is a means by which the capitalist class manages its rule over the lot of us. To maintain that rule, they need resources. In the private sector, they accumulate wealth simply by not paying the producer the full value of his or her wealth; this is how one makes a profit. The exploitation of the producer by the parasite forces the latter to set up a state to guard its parasitism, and that requires the parasite to raise funds for the maintenance of its own rule.

They do that in three ways: borrowing, taxation, and levying fines for behavior they disapprove of. At times, taxation can be made to appear to be more progressive than it actually is; from World War II until 1965, taxation was made to look like it was fairly progressive, when in fact the workers of this country were hit with the income tax for the first time and the ultra-rich really didn't pay much in taxes because it was becoming easier and easier to move their wealth offshore. This lead to the further shifting of the tax burden onto workers as the federal government slashed taxes on high incomes and the expansion of fines for criminal activity, most egregiously in the form of the drug war, with everything from fines levied against smoking pot to criminal asset forfeiture.

But it never seems to be enough, especially as wages keep falling, so the state has to shift it's strategy. During the Reagan years, the crushing of the labor movement, slashing taxes on high incomes, and gutting social spending lead to a crisis of government finance, which was solved by...borrowing huge amounts of money from the capitalists. This in and of itself is nothing new, but the scale on which occurred was certainly different than from before and part of the project of neoliberalism itself. To restore capitalist class power, Reagan made the government entirely indebted to the capitalist class, forcing a recurring cycle of cuts and austerity from the 1980s until present.

For working people then, taxation is definitely theft. Already deprived of the full value of what their labor produces, what they keep is then stolen from them by a capitalist government which uses what it steals to beat them with police batons, throw them in jail for engaging in the use of a mind-altering substance that doesn't have the protection of the state (i.e. anything other than alcohol), and spy on their activities and daily lives. Taxation of high incomes under capitalism is more often a fiction than not, a fig leaf to well-meaning reformists who think that they can put the breaks on wealth accumulation by the parasitical class under a government that that class owns lock, stock, and barrel.

Taxation of the workers is certainly theft. But this theft pales in comparison to the greatest theft of all - the theft of what the worker produces by the capitalists. Property is theft.

[Murica!]

Taxation of the workers is certainly theft. But this theft pales in comparison to the greatest theft of all - the theft of what the worker produces by the capitalists. Property is theft.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

I would only accept the social contract in the context of a government not under the control of a minute elite owning class, so I would agree with the phrase in theory but not in its general usage by anarcho-capitalist nutjobs.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Is it a phrase?

On the roads point, the issue isn't the technical requirements (generally the work is contracted out to private firms anyway) but the other things you need to have sorted before you can get to work. Unless you're suggesting that private companies should have the right to eminent domain, for instance.

[Murica!]

I would only accept the social contract in the context of a government not under the control of a minute elite owning class, so I would agree with the phrase in theory but not in its general usage by anarcho-capitalist nutjobs.

Please don't give them any legitimacy as anarchists.

[Zioneer]

How exactly do I debate with someone who believes that government can't do anything efficiently, and who, as I said, believes taxation is theft (and not in the socialist way, this guy is a ultra-capitalist libertarian)?

[© tweed]

nah, stick with "wage labor is slavery"

[/]

HP

[© tweed]

or "property is theft".  though Marx criticized that statement as absurd, as the concept of 'theft' presupposes the concept of 'property'.

[H. Ross Peron]

Obvious Horrible Phrase is obvious.

Horrible and nonsensical talking point.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Hasn't he ever heard of the social contract?

He might counter by asking to see the terms of this primeval document and wonder how he came to be bound by it.

I can't help but think that taxation is in some sense theft, at least as soon as there is any disagreement and one man claims that another man must pay something more than he thinks is right.  Perhaps it is a theft which people should generally put up with for the good of society, but taking property under the threat of force would generally be considered theft unless it is to return something already stolen.

[ElectionsGuy]

I don't buy into the phrase, especially if the taxpayers vote for it through a referendum. Obviously tax dollars can be wasted but to say its 'theft' is something else.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

Unless the person making this statement has been disenfranchised, this is simply not true. It's also highly hypocritical, as even the most self-sufficient person benefits from the protection of a government sustained by taxation.

[Zioneer]

Unless the person making this statement has been disenfranchised, this is simply not true. It's also highly hypocritical, as even the most self-sufficient person benefits from the protection of a government sustained by taxation.

Ah, but then you're assuming that they think that it's good that the government protects them, and that they wouldn't be into privatizing even the police/military/firefighters.

[Maxwell]

Yes it is. Not that all theft is bad.

[TDAS04]

Silly, horrible phrase.