UK General Discussion Thread: mayy lmao

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

That bastard Howe died and I just finding it out now? And here I am without champagne....

[Phony Moderate]

That bastard Howe died and I just finding it out now? And here I am without champagne....

I don't know why you'd do that. He was, overall, an asset to Thatcher and Thatcherism, given that he implemented many of her key policies. One could even argue that he was doing her a favour in November 1990 and that Thatcher's legacy would be far worse if not for his move.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Closure of Redcar steelworks confirmed. In addition to the massive economic blow this will likely have significant political consequences on Teesside.

[Antonio the Sixth]

This is the best thing ever.

[Oakvale]

That bastard Howe died and I just finding it out now? And here I am without champagne....

Is there a reason you feel this way about a British Cabinet minister from the 80s

[Phony Moderate]

Ugh, are we seeing the first signs of a new Civil War in Labour?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Too early to tell on that front, but we're certainly seeing terrible party management.

[Silent Hunter]

Too early to tell on that front, but we're certainly seeing terrible party management.

If your private meeting can be heard in the corridor, something isn't going right.

[Hnv1]

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2015/10/frank-field-calls-labour-mps-stand-independents-if-deselected

2 blasts from the past in one piece: 80's Bennism and the Independent Labour name

[BaconBacon96]

Momentum sounds like a bit of a cult to me.

[ChrisDR68]

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2015/10/frank-field-calls-labour-mps-stand-independents-if-deselected

2 blasts from the past in one piece: 80's Bennism and the Independent Labour name

"When there are selections of an MP, I would like to see MPs who reflect the values of members of the party," he said recently. "The fact is that Liz Kendall got 4 per cent of the votes in the leadership contest." - Jon Lansman, a veteran of the Bennite Campaign for Labour Party Democracy.

That sounds logical and highly reasonable but who then would represent the views of the vast majority of Labour voters and potential Labour voters who on average have much more moderate views than the current Labour Party leadership and membership?

One of the reasons I hope Corbyn leads Labour into the next general election is to explode the myth that the British people are willing to vote into power a left wing Labour government.

It appears the lessons of 1983 and 1987 really do need to be relearned all over again.  The only winners in this whole long winded process will be the Conservative Party just as they were 35 years ago.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Perhaps we should bring in open primaries.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Its worth noting that - unlike the situation in the 1970s and early 80s - most of the PLP were selected by a full ballot of their respective CLP. As such they are collectively much less vulnerable to the threat of deselection than their predecessors. It is also worth noting that - unlike the situation in the 1970s and early 80s - there is not a massive head of steam behind a campaign of mass deselections; the CLPD crowd are calling for selection rules to be opened up because thats what they've always believed, but there isn't much clamouring for it from the grassroots presently.

[ChrisDR68]

Interesting set of opinion poll results on Jeremy Corbyn's policies from pollster YouGov. Taken from John Rentoul's article in the Independent today:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/daily-catch-up-the-surprising-popularity-and-unpopularity-of-jeremy-corbyns-policies-a6696291.html

Scrapping tuition fees is surprisingly unpopular although virtually all Corbyn's policies regarding the UK's national security are predictably unpopular with the public.

[Phony Moderate]

What politician best represents the median British voter? It would have to be someone leftish on economics and rightish on a lot of social and defence issues (though liberal on things like gay rights and abortion) while being iffy about the EU. Perhaps the recently deceased former Labour Chancellor?

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Does anyone else find it surprising how much support a maximum wage has? I thought it would be less popular than scrapping tuition fees, for one.

[DavidB.]

What politician best represents the median British voter? It would have to be someone leftish on economics and rightish on a lot of social and defence issues (though liberal on things like gay rights and abortion) while being iffy about the EU. Perhaps the recently deceased former Labour Chancellor?

Funnily, this probably describes not only the median British voter but also the median voter in plenty of other Western European countries. That is exactly why new-right parties can be successful, because they operate from a framework that lacks a historical ideology and can be center-left on the economy while being "conservative" on sovereignity/national issues and not too offensive on "social" issues.

Sorry for derailing this thread, which ought to be about Britain, but I found the fact that the profile of the median voter is probably quite similar to other countries very striking.

[Blair]

If Corbyn gets to 2020 and loses all his supporters will blame the Blairites who cheated him, and claim that his key policies weren't pushed through.

The momentum group perfectly shows how there's a 'mass' that's made up of current labour, greens, ex labour etc who love Corbyn but see the party as a Blairite mess of evil

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Who are these people who like tuition fees?

[DavidB.]

Who are these people who like tuition fees?

People who think it's fair that one pay at least a fair share of one's own education?

[BaconBacon96]

Who are these people who like tuition fees?

People who think it's fair that one pay at least a fair share of one's own education?

I don't really see what's fair about being put into crushing debt for a degree that may not even get one a job but whatever you say.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I find it hard to believe that one could in good faith argue that one should have to pay one's own money for the minimum level of education required to do respectably in the world. Previously in most places that level of education was high school. In today's economy it's college. If free university was good enough for a Britain in which a university education wasn't strictly speaking necessary for most people, it certainly ought to be good enough for a Britain in which one is.

[DavidB.]

I don't really see what's fair about being put into crushing debt for a degree that may not even get one a job but whatever you say.

This is strawmanning. I wasn't talking about tuition fees that "put people into crushing debt". However, Dutch tuition fees of around 2000 euros a year (and grants for people from low-income backgrounds) seem reasonable to me.

I find it hard to believe that one could in good faith argue that one should have to pay one's own money for the minimum level of education required to do respectably in the world. Previously in most places that level of education was high school. In today's economy it's college. If free university was good enough for a Britain in which a university education wasn't strictly speaking necessary for most people, it certainly ought to be good enough for a Britain in which one is.

Most people in highly developed countries still didn't do a program in higher education and most of them end up in perfectly respectable jobs. Of course this is not to say that people should be held back by their background, everyone who has the brains should be able to do a higher education program, but I find many jobs for people with lower education highly respectable, to be honest oftentimes even more so than the jobs for higher educated people.

And of course it was easier to have no tuition fees in a Britain that had a far smaller amount of students. It would be highly costly not to have any form of contribution by students.

Of course modern American and British tuition fees are too high, but scrapping them altogether doesn't seem reasonable to me either. There is no such thing as a free lunch, and it seems best that both the government (i.e. the tax payer) and the student contribute some share to the student's education.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Latest news from the March of the Makers.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

The Baron Norman Warner, a right-aligned peer, and former Undersecretary of State for Health, resigns the Labour whip to sit on the crossbench. Notably he was the only labour parliamentarian to vote for the 2013 NHS reform bill, and is an advocate for point of use charges for the NHS.