Elitism

[migrendel]

Some members of our forum have labeled me, and our not so dearly departed friend CTGuy, elitists. I would like to have this term clarified. What qualifies one as an elitist? Politics, education, background, residence, lifestyle? I've never known this to be a positive descriptor and I just want to know what I'm considered as a result of this term.

[angus]

I have often referred to CTguy as an elitist.  I do not believe I have ever called you an elitist.  Elitists are royalty, aristocracy, owners of human property, and the like.  They are prejudiced against others:  blacks, southerners, the french, the illiterate, whomever.  I have not seen this bigotry from you.  Moralism at times, but certainly not elitism (which is its opposite in many ways).  

In fact, you and CTguy are about as far apart on this as I can imagine.  Perhaps your party is also a big tent.  There can be more than one big tent in US politics.

[migrendel]

I have always admired your candor, Angus. You are a valued addition to any debate.

[angus]

nah, I drink too much and use too many drugs and act irresponsibly and give bad advice and anger easily.  But thanks.

[dazzleman]

An elitist thinks that what is good enough for other people is not good enough for him.  Ted Kennedy's advocacy of forced busing for lower class Boston citizens, while his own kids were in lily white private schools, could be considered a form of elitism.

There are elitists in both parties.  It used to be that elitists were mostly in the Republican Party, but now I would say that a large number of elitists are in the Democratic Party.  Elitism often involves not living out your professed beliefs, such as strongly favoring multiculturalism while living in lily white communities.  This is very common in the northeast.

Elitists look down on the "little people" and seek to separate themselves from them, even while proclaiming great concern for them.  There are large numbers of elitists in the northeast, with Howard Dean probably being the most prominent one that I can think of.

Northeasterns often exhibit a regional elitism, looking down on the south and southwest as being less cultured and less intelligent than their region.

[migrendel]

I think Ted Kennedy's outspokeness is hardly the scandal. The fact that the buses had rocks thrown at them and African-Americans were beat up merely because they complied with court order is appalling. I find no defense or sympathy for those who resorted to mob violence because they felt threatened.

I also cannot understand this indictment of the Northeast. Many of us are fortunate, yes, but we have our Puritan roots intact. We still see injustice towards those other than us. We make an effort to reach out to those among us who are different, even though we may not see much of them. It is through understanding that we demonstrate our concern, sometimes a concern for concepts or situations alien to us.

Despite your epithets, we are proud of who we are.

[??????????]

Elitism in my book is those who have a strong distate for those who are/have/do the following :

1 A blue collar job
2 A h.s. education
3 A strong religious belief/conviction
4 Just want to be a guy and enjoy life
5 Drink socially or smoke or chew or whatever.
6 Think they are better then a southerner just because our accents are different.
7 Say yall instead of you all or y'ouns. lol

[Nation]

7) it's YOU'SE GUYS

[dazzleman]

I didn't say it was right to throw rocks at buses and beat up people because of their color.  But it is elitist to advocate sending other people's children against their will into neighborhoods and schools where you would not send your own children.

As far as reaching out to those who are different, that is simply not the case in the northeast.  There are plenty who are "different" here, and they live in isolated enclaves.  And that's the way liberals here really like it, despite their advocacy of diversity.  Just calling people "different" because of their ethnic background has a hint of elitism to it.  I know many people of different colors and I don't consider them different than me.

I'm not really trying to throw epithets or be overly critical.  You asked for a definition of elitism, and I gave one.  I am a northeasterner myself, and I like many things about this section of the country.  But there is an undeniable elitism that pervades this section of the country.  I don't think that elitism is always bad.  It is a matter of degree, and just about everybody is an elitist in some form or fashion, so the term elitist is not in and of itself an indictment.

[migrendel]

While I don't have a blue collar job, have been educated beyond high school, don't really practice a faith, smoke, have a Southern accent, or say y'all, I don't begrudge anyone who does. I do drink socially, and I wonder as to quite what you mean by just be a guy and enjoy life.

[??????????]

I think many "elitists" have a sense that being a guy is somehow "brutish" mostly because of the feminist movement. I don't see many N'easterners hog, deer, turkey hunting. Fishing maybe. Out of anyone in the N.East I admire most it's the fisherman/lobsterman.

[migrendel]

I do not believe that segregation is constitutional, either de facto or de jure. I favor busing to achieve an end to this. I also think that if the parents of South Boston don't like the idea of embracing basic civil rights for all, they can take their children out of public schools.

That's a form of elitism in its own right. As a result of themselves being condescended to by those who are more successful and educated, they need their own form of snobbery, be it despising blacks, gays, those who don't speak English, mainline Protestants, or what have you. Racism, I have found, is a form of snobbery practiced by those among us who don't have much to claim for themselves.

[migrendel]

I'll admit that I don't live the conventional masculine existence, but as the French say, Chacun a Son Gout.

[??????????]

I don't consider you elitist like CTGuy was. I think you would enjoy going hunting with me.

[migrendel]

I'm not so sure about it, but I would try it. We must be open to new experiences.

[dazzleman]

I do not believe that segregation is constitutional, either de facto or de jure. I favor busing to achieve an end to this. I also think that if the parents of South Boston don't like the idea of embracing basic civil rights for all, they can take their children out of public schools.

That's a form of elitism in its own right. As a result of themselves being condescended to by those who are more successful and educated, they need their own form of snobbery, be it despising blacks, gays, those who don't speak English, mainline Protestants, or what have you. Racism, I have found, is a form of snobbery practiced by those among us who don't have much to claim for themselves.

Separation of the races is a fact of life throughout the country.  There are many reasons for it, and solutions proposed by liberals have not only failed, but made the situation worse.

I have to say that if I were ordered by a liberal judge living in the suburbs to send my kids to an unsafe, substandard school in a violent neighborhood, I would refuse.

I agree that racism is a form of elitism.  But many elitists who don't want to live near blacks in reality can eschew racism, safe in the knowledge that they have the money to insulate themselves from urban problems.  The poor are left with no such option, and must resort to racism to protect themselves from crime and violence in some cases.  That is the sad reality that we should be trying to change.  Even though I am not one of them, I would not judge these people so harshly without walking in their shoes.

[The Duke]

I'd say migrendel is not an elitist.  He can be mistaken for one in a superficial way because he is a liberal from the northeast, so I think a person who really didn't pay much attention could possibly end up stereotyping migrendel unfairly as an elitist.

I say an elitist is someone who views the lifestyle of the rich and famous to be superior to other ways of acting.

I think it is also important to seperate between people like Paris Hilton who happens to be an elite and a person like Rob Reiner who is an elitist, since Paris Hilton doesn't look down her nose at people the way Rob Reiner does.  Elitists also think they play by a different set of rules than the rest of us, and a lot of times they are right (unfortunately) and can by their way out of legal trouble.

[dazzleman]

I also don't think migrendel is an elitist.  Most liberals from the northeast are, though.

We shouldn't forget about the Hollywood people on the west coast.  One of my favorites was the story about how Barbra Streisand had a whole list of energy saving tips on her website telling people to keep their homes at at least 80 degrees in the summer.  When somebody pointed out that the great Barbra keeps her house the temperature of a meat locker, her spokesperson said, "Well, she never meant for that to apply to her."

More traditional elitism was more Republican in nature, and many old-line Republicans are still elitist, but in a different way.  In my town, there is a great deal of elitism based upon the neighborhood you live in.  Even people who live in the "lesser" neighborhoods participate in their own way by oohing and aahing if you tell them that you live in one of the better neighborhoods.  It gets very tiresome after a while.

[Gustaf]

To me Elitism is rather simply about looking down on those who do not belong to one's own group. It is usually associated with people who are rich and/or highly educated. I have encountered a great deal of it...

[angus]

To me Elitism is rather simply about looking down on those who do not belong to one's own group. It is usually associated with people who are rich and/or highly educated. I have encountered a great deal of it...

We can distinguish between academic elitism (which I see every day, every minute, at work) and social elitism (which I rarely witness).  In my experience academic elitists are more likely to be democrats while social elitists (the few really wealthy people I've met who look down on the impoverished) have generally been republican.  

Statesrights pointed out another form of elitism which I hadn't initially considered, and which seems to cross party lines.  (geopolitical elitism, I think I'd call it.  Europeans look down on third world folks, or Easterners look down on West Coast for sure, or within the east, the two northern regions north of mason and dixon's line, look down on those who hail from south of that line, etc.)  There may also be religion based elitism:  zoroastrians, Mainstream protestants, Jews, Catholics, Mormons, evangelical protestants, Sunni muslim, Shia muslim (Monotheistic groups listed in order of how elitist I perceive them to be.  Anyone know where druze fit in here?  anyone ever met a druze?)

[JohnFKennedy]

To me Elitism is rather simply about looking down on those who do not belong to one's own group. It is usually associated with people who are rich and/or highly educated. I have encountered a great deal of it...

We can distinguish between academic elitism (which I see every day, every minute, at work) and social elitism (which I rarely witness).  In my experience academic elitists are more likely to be democrats while social elitists (the few really wealthy people I've met who look down on the impoverished) have generally been republican.  

Statesrights pointed out another form of elitism which I hadn't initially considered, and which seems to cross party lines.  (geopolitical elitism, I think I'd call it.  Europeans look down on third world folks, or Easterners look down on West Coast for sure, or within the east, the two northern regions north of mason and dixon's line, look down on those who hail from south of that line, etc.)  There may also be religion based elitism:  zoroastrians, Mainstream protestants, Jews, Catholics, Mormons, evangelical protestants, Sunni muslim, Shia muslim (Monotheistic groups listed in order of how elitist I perceive them to be.  Anyone know where druze fit in here?  anyone ever met a druze?)

Europeans more look down on americans really....

[dunn]

To me Elitism is rather simply about looking down on those who do not belong to one's own group. It is usually associated with people who are rich and/or highly educated. I have encountered a great deal of it...

We can distinguish between academic elitism (which I see every day, every minute, at work) and social elitism (which I rarely witness).  In my experience academic elitists are more likely to be democrats while social elitists (the few really wealthy people I've met who look down on the impoverished) have generally been republican.  

Statesrights pointed out another form of elitism which I hadn't initially considered, and which seems to cross party lines.  (geopolitical elitism, I think I'd call it.  Europeans look down on third world folks, or Easterners look down on West Coast for sure, or within the east, the two northern regions north of mason and dixon's line, look down on those who hail from south of that line, etc.)  There may also be religion based elitism:  zoroastrians, Mainstream protestants, Jews, Catholics, Mormons, evangelical protestants, Sunni muslim, Shia muslim (Monotheistic groups listed in order of how elitist I perceive them to be.  Anyone know where druze fit in here?  anyone ever met a druze?)

I met a lot of Druze, they are 1% of the population here..

and how did you decided to rate the Monotheistic groups like that?  

[Gustaf]

To me Elitism is rather simply about looking down on those who do not belong to one's own group. It is usually associated with people who are rich and/or highly educated. I have encountered a great deal of it...

We can distinguish between academic elitism (which I see every day, every minute, at work) and social elitism (which I rarely witness).  In my experience academic elitists are more likely to be democrats while social elitists (the few really wealthy people I've met who look down on the impoverished) have generally been republican.  

Statesrights pointed out another form of elitism which I hadn't initially considered, and which seems to cross party lines.  (geopolitical elitism, I think I'd call it.  Europeans look down on third world folks, or Easterners look down on West Coast for sure, or within the east, the two northern regions north of mason and dixon's line, look down on those who hail from south of that line, etc.)  There may also be religion based elitism:  zoroastrians, Mainstream protestants, Jews, Catholics, Mormons, evangelical protestants, Sunni muslim, Shia muslim (Monotheistic groups listed in order of how elitist I perceive them to be.  Anyone know where druze fit in here?  anyone ever met a druze?)

Well, I meet both types in my school.

And I wrote 'rich and/or highly educated' to point out this distinction.

[angus]

To me Elitism is rather simply about looking down on those who do not belong to one's own group. It is usually associated with people who are rich and/or highly educated. I have encountered a great deal of it...

We can distinguish between academic elitism (which I see every day, every minute, at work) and social elitism (which I rarely witness).  In my experience academic elitists are more likely to be democrats while social elitists (the few really wealthy people I've met who look down on the impoverished) have generally been republican.  

Statesrights pointed out another form of elitism which I hadn't initially considered, and which seems to cross party lines.  (geopolitical elitism, I think I'd call it.  Europeans look down on third world folks, or Easterners look down on West Coast for sure, or within the east, the two northern regions north of mason and dixon's line, look down on those who hail from south of that line, etc.)  There may also be religion based elitism:  zoroastrians, Mainstream protestants, Jews, Catholics, Mormons, evangelical protestants, Sunni muslim, Shia muslim (Monotheistic groups listed in order of how elitist I perceive them to be.  Anyone know where druze fit in here?  anyone ever met a druze?)

I met a lot of Druze, they are 1% of the population here..

and how did you decided to rate the Monotheistic groups like that?  

With my tongue in my cheek, of course.  

but zoroastrians, the progenitors of all later hebrew and greek and latin and arabic monotheism, know they were the first to stumble on the idea of a noncompetitive god to whom worship was obligatory.  And they know it.  RWN points out that they are one of the few religious groups which will not accept converts.   The rest are fairly self-explanatory, I imagine, given stereotypes in this country.  Consider GWB, born Episcopalian.  How many presidents have been episcopalian (US version of anglican)?  Well, almost all of them.  You know his family looks down on Kerry (a catholic), and Reagan (a 'born again' evangelical prot), and Clinton/Gore (Southern Baptists), etc...

As you probably know, Harvard did not admit Jews or Catholics till the early 1900s.  For the first three-hundred years of its existence, it allowed only WASPs.  Hell, even the Klan didn't take that long to start admitting catholics and jews.  (of course, they're pretty hard up, so they'll take anyone who's white.  I think the rationale behind harvard's controversial decision to start admitting non-WASP types about a hundred years ago was a bit different.)

[dunn]

To me Elitism is rather simply about looking down on those who do not belong to one's own group. It is usually associated with people who are rich and/or highly educated. I have encountered a great deal of it...

We can distinguish between academic elitism (which I see every day, every minute, at work) and social elitism (which I rarely witness).  In my experience academic elitists are more likely to be democrats while social elitists (the few really wealthy people I've met who look down on the impoverished) have generally been republican.  

Statesrights pointed out another form of elitism which I hadn't initially considered, and which seems to cross party lines.  (geopolitical elitism, I think I'd call it.  Europeans look down on third world folks, or Easterners look down on West Coast for sure, or within the east, the two northern regions north of mason and dixon's line, look down on those who hail from south of that line, etc.)  There may also be religion based elitism:  zoroastrians, Mainstream protestants, Jews, Catholics, Mormons, evangelical protestants, Sunni muslim, Shia muslim (Monotheistic groups listed in order of how elitist I perceive them to be.  Anyone know where druze fit in here?  anyone ever met a druze?)

I met a lot of Druze, they are 1% of the population here..

and how did you decided to rate the Monotheistic groups like that?  

With my tongue in my cheek, of course.  

but zoroastrians, the progenitors of all later hebrew and greek and latin and arabic monotheism, know they were the first to stumble on the idea of a noncompetitive god to whom worship was obligatory.  And they know it.  RWN points out that they are one of the few religious groups which will not accept converts.   The rest are fairly self-explanatory, I imagine, given stereotypes in this country.  Consider GWB, born Episcopalian.  How many presidents have been episcopalian (US version of anglican)?  Well, almost all of them.  You know his family looks down on Kerry (a catholic), and Reagan (a 'born again' evangelical prot), and Clinton/Gore (Southern Baptists), etc...

As you probably know, Harvard did not admit Jews or Catholics till the early 1900s.  For the first three-hundred years of its existence, it allowed only WASPs.  Hell, even the Klan didn't take that long to start admitting catholics and jews.  (of course, they're pretty hard up, so they'll take anyone who's white.  I think the rationale behind harvard's controversial decision to start admitting non-WASP types about a hundred years ago was a bit different.)

Kerry is 1/4 or maybe 1/2 jewish (though according to jewish law you either a jew or not and he isn't) but I read he is closer to the english crown (so does Bush but Kerry is closer)