Something that sticks out like a sore thumb in the Star Wars Prequel trilogies

[Mechaman]

Really, the critique you are about to read is more relevant to the prequel trilogy than anything though to be fair it is prevalent in the original if you pay attention.

Now yes, I am certain that many of you who have taken college research courses or the like have heard by now the whole "Star Wars is conservative propaganda" essays or whatever you want to call them that came out in the late 70's/early 80's whenever Raygun was president.  Basically, the premise amounts to the Empire being sort of a symbol of big excessive government and the heroes that are lionized in the epic saga are either corrupt businessmen (see Han Solo and Lando Calrissian), religious zealots (Luke Skywalker and Obi Wan Kenobi), and freaking royalty (Princess Leia and that Mon Motha chick).  And of course, insert some sort of comparison with the excessive government of the British at the time of the American Revolution with that of the Empire depicted in Star Wars.

I am pulling a lot of that out of my ass from what I vaguely remember from Sophomore year Research and Presentation class (which was awhile back), so if someone is more up to speed on exactly what the commentaries of the time was about, feel free to correct me.  I do have some slight disagreements with it (especially as it concerns the role of Han Solo vs. how the man gets interpreted by many watchers), but that is a discussion for another time.

Anyway, now I will go onto a very controversial and unpopular subject.  Of course that subject is the prequel trilogies.  And yes, the previous paragraphs tie heavily into what I am about to write.  Of course there is a very right wing narrative sewn into the prequels.  Quite heavily so.  However, what I find pretty amusing is that said narrative seems to be self-defeating as the series goes on.

For starters, we get a look at exactly how the system operated before the Empire.  In the later trilogy we get this perception of an idyllic past in a "Galactic Republic" where everyone had rights and the concerns of "Galactic citizens" were taken up by duly appointed representatives who defend their interests.  It isn't really clear if said appointment was by democratic elections or if said planet's ruling monarchy just picked somebody to do it.  In either case, it's not a terribly out of place concept given that the appointment of US Senators by state legislatures even today is a pet issue defended by many political conservatives (because "something something non-biased body", lmao).  At the age of 11, before the first movie came out, I also imagined that the "Clone Wars" were what Palpatine and Vader used to take over the republic directly by force (okay a lot of that is me being 11, fair enough).

Of course when I watched the first movie and then the second and third ones recently (they were on tv and nothing was on, you know the drill) I suddenly came to realize that the "idyllic past" that the latter trilogy established the Rebellion as trying to return to was anything but idyllic really.  Corrupt politicians and bureaucrats, punitive government measures against dissenting planets and "outlying systems", an extremely lack of care or concern about the well being of citizens of the "Outer Rim", a republic that sends religious zealots armed with laser swords to spy on dissenters. . . . . . I mean seriously.  I mean just seeing that from the FIRST FREAKING MOVIE I gotta say that maybe Palpatine and his Sith crew put a little too much effort into making the Republic FANTASTICALLY EVIL when all they really needed to do was smoke some weed and let the corrupt Republic fall upon it's own swords.

Which isn't to say the Trade Federation were a bunch of poor misunderstood swords.  After all, in the first movie they are shown forcing a planet into starvation in the hopes of getting their views understood.  At the very least this is asshole victim.

Now I could go on and on about how all the political intrigue and abuses of civil liberties that goes on in the first three films (well before the implementation of OMG EVIL EMPIRE!!!!!!!! occurs), but what really clinches it is the fact that the prequels seem to be selling the message that maybe these Jedi people deserved to die.

In the original saga the Jedi are seen as some sort of feel good laser sword religious types that seems Hare Krishnaish or something.  And then one day "the Dark Side" Sith decide to just kill them all.  In the prequel trilogy we something much different.  The Jedi aren't some fringe religious magic group with swords who dress like they are going to karate class or smoke cocaine at a disco, they are a highly privileged fascistic (yes I am going there) order of "knights" who meet in a freaking tall building to talk about how they are going to manipulate events that are going on to benefit their agenda.  And of course their said agenda almost seems to always benefit the corrupt republican government indicated in the previous paragraphs.  OH yeah sure, the chancellor of said government might have been a Sith lord who was weaving a web of lies, but outside of that let us examine how easily the Jedi seemed to have no problem with enlisting the help of a huge clone army (in fact a Jedi Knight placed the original order for one) to help quelch dissent from "the outer regions" if need be.  A lot of their actions in the third movie, when they finally turn against Palpatine and his allies, seems to be a lot more in response to said group turning against the Jedi and their interests more so than it does a moralistic opposition to the evil actions of the empire against the rebellious.  OH yeah sure, there is some rhetoric made about "upholding democracy" and what not, but that didn't seem to be a huge issue before when many people were disadvantaged in the Outer Rim (quick point to be made here about how starvation only seemed to be horrible when it happened to the privileged Naboo while people were freaking slaves on Tatooine), huge ass clone armies were bombarding dozens (and that is a very conservative estimate here folks) of planets that dissented from the Empire (yeah and they were only targeting "bad people" my left foot), and were pretty much okay with giving Palpatine emergency powers to deal with the Federation rather than suggest a medium course of action.

Seems to me to be a pretty corrupt organization of "reformers" much in need of a good cleansing.  Almost makes me feel like a pro-murder TNF Marxist just talking about it.  It is almost as if the "evil" Sith did the whole galaxy a favor by removing a class of corrupt powermongers from power.  Of course the Sith themselves were very much the same thing (I am not a Sith apologist by any stretch), but in this instance it is very easy to see a Civil War comparison here with wage slavers being victorious over chattel slavers (ie, it is better to have only one of these than both of these yada yada).  Sometimes I wonder if "bring balance to the force" is supposed to be a euphemism for "you idiots are going to mass murder each other and the rest of the Galaxy will celebrate loudly at the end of Episode VI" or something.

On my fourth bourbon or so I apologize for any mistypes or what have you.

[traininthedistance]

I can believe that Star Wars is conservative propaganda... I can't believe that the Jedi are "reformers" in any way, shape, or form– they're just straight up reactionary traditionalists, full of religion and military pomp and hereditary bloodline supremacy. 

If you want to use Star Wars to bash reformism, you'd be better off comparing us to...ulp, I can't believe I'm saying this... Jar-Jar.

[Deus Naturae]

Everyone loves to rip on Episodes 1-3, but I like them. A lot to think about (I also actually like Jar Jar).

I do think that the prequel movies are conservative, but not in the sense of American conservatism. More like how the Lord of the Rings embody J.R.R. Tolkien's Romantic traditional conservatism. The prequels mostly depict struggles between traditional societies and institutions and those of the brave new world of modernity. Naboo's monarchy isn't the norm; Naboo is depicted as a galactic backwater, one of the few remaining idyllic, traditional societies (complete with noble savage Gungans)  helplessly being exploited by a multinational corporation/conglomerate which starves the people and destroys the environment. The Trade Federation has their own private army of literal corporate drones (and generally posses very advanced technology) which they use in an attempt to crush the traditional indigenous inhabitants of Naboo. They are, however, saved by the Jedi, who throughout the prequel trilogy are a symbol of traditional values and the ways of the past.

You compare the Jedi to a fascistic military order, but rather they are the warrior elites of old, being undermined by the modern military-industrial complex instituted by Palpatine. The Jedi are more like the Knights of the Round Table than the SS. However, Palpatine attempts to transform the Jedi from a mystic order of warriors who nobly travel the galaxy fighting injustice into a secular group of soldiers, taking orders from the government and fighting in political battles alongside modern clone soldiers. The slaughter of the Jedi and the destruction of the Jedi Temple represents the destruction of the traditional Republic and the triumph of Progress/Modernity/etc.

Anakin is literally covered with technology; made no longer a man, but a machine, who in the final scene stands next to the newly coronated Emperor to view the very beginning of construction on the Death Star, one of the many horrors to be produced in the name of Progress. Also interesting is that when Padme dies in childbirth, the nurses are every high-tech looking robots, and then Luke and Leia are sent to relatively undeveloped worlds to be raised and grow up.
 
Of course this sort of conservatism has its own problems, but it's very different than the message you seem to be getting from the films.

Edit: Also Train brings up a good point about the hereditary nature of the Jedi order. He basically said what I was trying to in fewer words and more negative language.

Another somewhat unrelated thing I've always found interesting is how they implied that Anakin was the product of a virgin birth. I guess it's supposed to be an Antichrist thing. Someone should try to analyze that deeper. Like I said in the beginning of this post, a lot to think about.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Yes, the prequel trilogy displays a lot of moral grayness that was completely absent from the original. That's a major improvement in my view, and it makes the story much more compelling. Although I and II were mediocre (the first because it was too goofy, the second because it had huge plot holes), I consider III to be the best Star Wars movie, and one of my favorite movies overall.

Anyway, back you your point, I wouldn't say the Jedi are bad guys. They have noble goals but are entangled in their traditions and their refusal to truly face the gravity of the situation and adapt to the change around them. Their position is similar to that of many institutions in history that have become stagnant and complacent over time: they eventually lose their grip over the situation, and end up getting wiped out. The prequel saga is definitely something of a Greek tragedy in that regard. What the prequels document is the decay and eventual downfall of a once-glorious power, as it so often happens in history.

[Joe Republic]

I thought this was going to be about how Padme's sudden and mysterious death during childbirth completely contradicted Leia's later claim that she could remember her mother.  Or how C-3PO was built by a ten year-old.  Or how Obi-wan and Vader would later completely ignore the two robots they had both spent a hell of a lot of time with in the past.

You guys are getting way too deep into this.  Lucas clearly didn't think too much about all this himself, so it's beyond me why y'all are.

[tik 🪀✨]

I thought this was going to be about how Padme's sudden and mysterious death during childbirth completely contradicted Leia's later claim that she could remember her mother.  Or how C-3PO was built by a ten year-old.  Or how Obi-wan and Vader would later completely ignore the two robots they had both spent a hell of a lot of time with in the past.

You guys are getting way too deep into this.  Lucas clearly didn't think too much about all this himself, so it's beyond me why y'all are.

Because overanalysing pop culture is fun.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Yes, the prequel trilogy displays a lot of moral grayness that was completely absent from the original. That's a major improvement in my view, and it makes the story much more compelling. Although I and II were mediocre (the first because it was too goofy, the second because it had huge plot holes), I consider III to be the best Star Wars movie, and one of my favorite movies overall.

Anyway, back you your point, I wouldn't say the Jedi are bad guys. They have noble goals but are entangled in their traditions and their refusal to truly face the gravity of the situation and adapt to the change around them. Their position is similar to that of many institutions in history that have become stagnant and complacent over time: they eventually lose their grip over the situation, and end up getting wiped out. The prequel saga is definitely something of a Greek tragedy in that regard. What the prequels document is the decay and eventual downfall of a once-glorious power, as it so often happens in history.

Revenge of the Sith is my favorite as well

[Mechaman]

Yes, the prequel trilogy displays a lot of moral grayness that was completely absent from the original. That's a major improvement in my view, and it makes the story much more compelling. Although I and II were mediocre (the first because it was too goofy, the second because it had huge plot holes), I consider III to be the best Star Wars movie, and one of my favorite movies overall.

Anyway, back you your point, I wouldn't say the Jedi are bad guys. They have noble goals but are entangled in their traditions and their refusal to truly face the gravity of the situation and adapt to the change around them. Their position is similar to that of many institutions in history that have become stagnant and complacent over time: they eventually lose their grip over the situation, and end up getting wiped out. The prequel saga is definitely something of a Greek tragedy in that regard. What the prequels document is the decay and eventual downfall of a once-glorious power, as it so often happens in history.

Fair enough.

I believe that might be where we differ in Anarchist Left vs. Progressive/Social Democratic Left (whatever you want to call it).  I tend to view such institutions as arbiters of "control" and moral repression more so than just misguided.  Admittedly that painted a lot of my original analysis.

And in regards to traininthedistance, fair enough.  I was using "reformer" more in the sense of moralistic handwringing and what not.  Jar Jar Binks of course, the naive well intentioned idiot he is, is a more than fair representation of the "political reformer" than maliciously minded self-righteous mind conrol freaks obsessed with upholding a certain form of genetic supremacy.

I guess what I was saying was that the Jedi were quite reactionary, not as a catchall for "reformers" (who generally fall all over the political map depending on what sort of "reform" they are shilling).

[Mechaman]

I thought this was going to be about how Padme's sudden and mysterious death during childbirth completely contradicted Leia's later claim that she could remember her mother.  Or how C-3PO was built by a ten year-old.  Or how Obi-wan and Vader would later completely ignore the two robots they had both spent a hell of a lot of time with in the past.

You guys are getting way too deep into this.  Lucas clearly didn't think too much about all this himself, so it's beyond me why y'all are.

Oh we have all the time in the world dear fellow.  I for one think it is interesting how overused the "I am you father!" meme is and how badly many in Hollywood have used it since.  What tends to be missed is that what made that part of the Empire story so great was that the way Darth Vader and the Sith were sold the audience (at the time) couldn't really tell if Darth Vader was telling the truth or if he was just pulling some insane mindf*** on Luke Skywalker to weaken his resolve the next time they met.  Oh yes sure, many were shocked that Darth Vader was Luke's father given that Vader was sold as pretty much a Super Evil Guy In Freaking Black Robes and Sh*t, but until Return of the Jedi with Yoda pretty much revealing everything (and Obi Wan Kenobi telling Luke that he might have swapped DNA samples with someone familiar without knowing it) there was still some doubt about Vader's claim (again, due to how the "Dark Side" was sold it was plausible that Vader was lying).

Empire is by far my favorite (like it is many) for exploiring such character development and theme aspects.  Of course, going in everyone knows that Vader is Luke's father nowdays simply due to how ingrained Star Wars is in culture.  However, it is still fascinating to watch the film and dare I say it put yourself in the shoes of Han Solo as he is leaded off to the carbonite chamber, just wondering what thoughts ran through his head as he was about to be freezed for years (I am currently reading Shadows of the Empire, the novel released with the multimedia project that Lucas launched several years before the Menace to get an idea of how a new film sage would churn out.  Very fascinating stuff in it.  Those of you who played the Nintendo 64 game might be familiar with the story) as Leia tells him she loves him.  Wondering what is going through Luke's head as his hand is cut off and a few seconds later when Vader tells him he is his father.

But yes, more overanalyzing, but what do you expect?  This is the Atlas after all.  If we can dedicate 18 someodd pages to Iggy whatsherface and about how her role in society affects the general populations' perception of black culture or whatever the hell they were talking about, a Star Wars Discussion thread is not too out of the ordinary.

-Mechaman

[bedstuy]

Those movies are terrible.  If anything about the characters or plot doesn't make sense, it's because George Lucas doesn't care about characters or plot, he just wanted to play with various special effects.

[Mechaman]

Those movies are terrible.  If anything about the characters or plot doesn't make sense, it's because George Lucas doesn't care about characters or plot, he just wanted to play with various special effects.

Well yes, this is very much true as well.  But I wanted to at least have the pretense of respectability going into this thread.  Obviously, the good that the few who liked the prequels saw in them (particularly the moral greyness pointed out by Tony) seem more unintentional than anything by Lucas standards.

Kind of like how watching The Dark Knight saga makes Bruce Wayne/Batman look like a fascist tool without realizing it.

[bedstuy]

Those movies are terrible.  If anything about the characters or plot doesn't make sense, it's because George Lucas doesn't care about characters or plot, he just wanted to play with various special effects.

Well yes, this is very much true as well.  But I wanted to at least have the pretense of respectability going into this thread.  Obviously, the good that the few who liked the prequels saw in them (particularly the moral greyness pointed out by Tony) seem more unintentional than anything by Lucas standards.

Kind of like how watching The Dark Knight saga makes Bruce Wayne/Batman look like a fascist tool without realizing it.

Yes, the Dark Knight trilogy is an allegory about George W. Bush.  It's also mediocre. 

[Mr. Smith]

If you want the simple analysis of the Jedi, it is simply that they were Moderate Heroes who failed to adjust with the times because they got too dogmatic.

I do think there is one thing everyone here is forgetting, one thing that makes the OT look cheap in comparison, and something that any good mythos has...and that is a mythos within the mythos.

The Opera scene in Revenge of the Sith which alluded to some great and terrible Sith that tried to manipulate life was absolutely amazingly done. It also managed to make an excellent implication regarding the origin of Anakin, why he had no father, and give more sense to the midi-chlorians as well as give us an idea of what makes the Dark Side tick.

But none of this was outright stated, just alluded.

No part of the Original Trilogy had anything like that, not one part.

Even Harry Potter (Deathly Hallows), Lord of the Rings, even they had a separate mythos within (that's an understatement for LoTR actually).

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

On a not entirely unrelated note, I recall hearing a fan theory that Anakin actually did bring balance to the Force by leaving only two Sith and two Jedi left alive.

As for political analysis of the films, I haven't seen them in a while, so I can't tell ya much.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The Commentator is correct; there's really no point trying to seriously analyse the politics of such spectacularly shoddy work.

[Sol]

I'm obviously wildly offtopic but I'm a little concerned by this Mechaman:

On my fourth bourbon or so I apologize for any mistypes or what have you.

[Simfan34]

I'm obviously wildly offtopic but I'm a little concerned by this Mechaman:

On my fourth bourbon or so I apologize for any mistypes or what have you.

Oh. Yes. This is alarming.

[Mr. Smith]

Seemed relevant, and what better way to temporarily combine the "best show as a 3 year old" thread with this, than a Sesame Street Parody of what Star Wars was.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-LfQCPJJkY

[badgate]

(I also actually like Jar Jar).

*stops reading, never returns to this sub-forum*

[Associate Justice PiT]

On a not entirely unrelated note, I recall hearing a fan theory that Anakin actually did bring balance to the Force by leaving only two Sith and two Jedi left alive.

As for political analysis of the films, I haven't seen them in a while, so I can't tell ya much.

     But he proceeds to sacrifice himself to kill the other remaining Sith a few decades later. If that is how he brings balance to the Force, he sure does a good job of breaking it.