Update XXI: "Scientific Facts Are Not Hard And Fast Rules."

[TTS1996]

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Are you 100% sure about that, Bushie?

I'm 100% sure that racists are in the vast minority of my state.  I am also 100% sure that Oklahoma is the greatest state in America.

This is rather like saying Oklahoma is the worlds tallest dwarf. Admittedly taller than all other dwarves, but still essentially a dwarf, and so not able to apply for any job with a minimum height requirement such as the owner operator of an enchanted bean stalk. (thanks to Stewart Lee)

[Sopranos Republican]

I've seen the treasonous decal in Vermont, Massachusetts, and New Hampshire, generally on rusted old Ford Ranger pickup trucks. So if they're seen in New England (the literal anti-Dixie) then they definitely exist in Oklahoma. Rats should all be hung IMO.

[IceSpear]

Bushie, you still haven't told me whether or not you'd eat the chicken in a can.

[Indy Texas]

I've seen the treasonous decal in Vermont, Massachusetts, and New Hampshire, generally on rusted old Ford Ranger pickup trucks. So if they're seen in New England (the literal anti-Dixie) then they definitely exist in Oklahoma. Rats should all be hung IMO.

Might some of those people be using it more as a general symbol of rebellion akin to a Jolly Roger or an anarchist 'A' symbol? I can see how someone in rural New England who is completely divorced from the historical weight and racial implications of the rebel flag might view it in that way.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I've seen it flying in Rhyl!

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

I've seen the treasonous decal in Vermont, Massachusetts, and New Hampshire, generally on rusted old Ford Ranger pickup trucks. So if they're seen in New England (the literal anti-Dixie) then they definitely exist in Oklahoma. Rats should all be hung IMO.

Might some of those people be using it more as a general symbol of rebellion akin to a Jolly Roger or an anarchist 'A' symbol? I can see how someone in rural New England who is completely divorced from the historical weight and racial implications of the rebel flag might view it in that way.

It's in part that. 90% of the time it's called "rebel flag". But the other part is that it is certainly in camaraderie with the Southern US and belief that they are far superior to Boston/NY. Rural pride or such.

Shockingly despite representing rebellion, it represents nationalism at the same time. Often displayed right next to an American flag. Perhaps not so shocking considering the South regularly prides itself in the same stuff.

[Hatman 🍁]

Sometimes you'll even see it in rural parts of Canada.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I've never seen it in Minnesota...did once in North Dakota though.

[Joe Biden 2020]

I've seen the treasonous decal in Vermont, Massachusetts, and New Hampshire, generally on rusted old Ford Ranger pickup trucks. So if they're seen in New England (the literal anti-Dixie) then they definitely exist in Oklahoma. Rats should all be hung IMO.

I know you're not serious, but this is exactly what the despicable idiots said in the SAE video.  Careful what you say and how you say it.

[J-Mann]

Is anyone truly shocked by the behavior of these SAE douches? I mean, I understand they're saying some pretty terrible sh[inks], and since it was captured on video, they're essentially representing the University ... but come on.

This is how ALL frat douches act. They may not say the n-word, but guaranteed they're douching it up being exclusionary against SOMEONE. THAT'S WHAT FRATERNITIES ARE ... exclusionary organizations. Certain people don't make it in ... could be money, could be looks, could be race, could be religion. They exclude based on SOMETHING in each and every case. Hell, historically black fraternities don't have a hell of a lot of white people, either. Do they say some sh[inks] behind closed doors that people would be "shocked" by?

Yeah, probably so.

So while these douches are particularly vile because of the sh[inks] they were saying ... which, for the record, I can't defend other than it being technically protected speech ... they are representing every single fraternity's essential, core behavior.

This shouldn't surprise anyone.

[Joe Biden 2020]

Is anyone truly shocked by the behavior of these SAE douches? I mean, I understand they're saying some pretty terrible sh[inks], and since it was captured on video, they're essentially representing the University ... but come on.

This is how ALL frat douches act. They may not say the n-word, but guaranteed they're douching it up being exclusionary against SOMEONE. THAT'S WHAT FRATERNITIES ARE ... exclusionary organizations. Certain people don't make it in ... could be money, could be looks, could be race, could be religion. They exclude based on SOMETHING in each and every case. Hell, historically black fraternities don't have a hell of a lot of white people, either. Do they say some sh[inks] behind closed doors that people would be "shocked" by?

Yeah, probably so.

So while these douches are particularly vile because of the sh[inks] they were saying ... which, for the record, I can't defend other than it being technically protected speech ... they are representing every single fraternity's essential, core behavior.

This shouldn't surprise anyone.

I have never liked fraternities, and to a lesser extent sororities, for that very reason.  I am thankful my college only had, and still only has, one fraternity - ACACIA - and I was even skeptical of them even though they were very benign at my campus.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

Is anyone truly shocked by the behavior of these SAE douches? I mean, I understand they're saying some pretty terrible sh[inks], and since it was captured on video, they're essentially representing the University ... but come on.

This is how ALL frat douches act. They may not say the n-word, but guaranteed they're douching it up being exclusionary against SOMEONE. THAT'S WHAT FRATERNITIES ARE ... exclusionary organizations. Certain people don't make it in ... could be money, could be looks, could be race, could be religion. They exclude based on SOMETHING in each and every case. Hell, historically black fraternities don't have a hell of a lot of white people, either. Do they say some sh[inks] behind closed doors that people would be "shocked" by?

Yeah, probably so.

So while these douches are particularly vile because of the sh[inks] they were saying ... which, for the record, I can't defend other than it being technically protected speech ... they are representing every single fraternity's essential, core behavior.

This shouldn't surprise anyone.

Hey.

I was in a fraternity, not everyone in them are racist, sexist, homophobic thugs.

Having said that, I know mine was unusual.

[Adam Griffin]

Wait, has Bushie been claiming that there are no Confederate flag emblems at all in Oklahoma? That's patently ridiculous. Granted, I actually live in the Heart of the Old Confederacy (but historically, a part of it that was about as anti-secession as you can get; I think it's comparable to Oklahoma in that regard) and if I really pay attention, I'll see the damn thing at least once somewhere (novelty plate, actual SoCV license plate, decal, actual flag flying in someone's yard) every time I drive for 20 minutes.

[J-Mann]

Hey.

I was in a fraternity, not everyone in them are racist, sexist, homophobic thugs.

Having said that, I know mine was unusual.

And maybe you were a perfect upstanding gentleman the entire time, as were all of your fraternity brothers. However, my guess is that you (and they) at some point did something that was reprehensible enough that you wouldn't want it broadcast on YouTube. It doesn't have to be saying n****r ... it's just the type of behavior that these organizations breed. If you ever talked about how nice the girls' at Kappa Kappa c**nta's tits were, the mainstream media would gasp in shock and call you horribly sexist. If anyone ever told an off-color joke, they'd be violating another one of our overly sensitive society's delicate sensibilities, and the university's president would condemn you and your family for three generations.

You'd want none of it broadcast. But at least you didn't say the n-word!

Again, not defending the assholes from OU's SAE chapter or saying your group did anything nearly that bad. But exclusionary groups spur insular thinking, and groups of young guys together are going to do inappropriate things ... this is the type of behavior that results.

I'm aware my experience is subjective, and not entirely typical at a small school with only three social fraternities, but there's a massive difference between excluding someone for demographic reasons as opposed to excluding someone because an organization has appraised that said person would be a detriment to them. Voting is a discriminatory process, as is hiring. Not everyone will be voted for, not everyone will be hired. As I'm going to guess, you probably would see a vast gap between not hiring someone because they're black and not hiring someone because you don't think they have the qualifications. The fraternities at my school (at least--I'm well aware that my experience is probably atypical, and acknowledge such) are hardly exclusionary on the basis of race, religion, sexuality, or class.

Gotta call bullsh[inks] on you. I don't say this as some sort of homo-touting prude, but I know damn well there wasn't a single frat within 2,000 miles of where I went to school that didn't have a pack of a-holes that got sh[inks]faced drunk every weekend, laughed at fags because it was the popular thing to do in a group of good ol' boys, acted like pretentious pricks around other on-campus groups, represented their universities in the worst way possible at sporting events, and probably committed their fair share of date rape. The surface-level qualifications mean nothing compared to the herd mentality of the clique.

For the record, I was an asshole in college, too.

Broad brush? Yeah, sure. I'll admit that I have a special dislike for fraternities and sororities. And I'll agree with you that there's a big difference between not hiring based on qualifications versus not hiring based on race / religion / orientation / etc. There's also a big difference between the insularity a business encourages versus whatever a fraternity or sorority could possibly encourage (outside of BS mottos and boilerplate values), and more often than not, their exclusionary tendencies boil down to the lowest common denominators.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

Hey.

I was in a fraternity, not everyone in them are racist, sexist, homophobic thugs.

Having said that, I know mine was unusual.

And maybe you were a perfect upstanding gentleman the entire time, as were all of your fraternity brothers. However, my guess is that you (and they) at some point did something that was reprehensible enough that you wouldn't want it broadcast on YouTube. It doesn't have to be saying n****r ... it's just the type of behavior that these organizations breed. If you ever talked about how nice the girls' at Kappa Kappa c**nta's tits were, the mainstream media would gasp in shock and call you horribly sexist. If anyone ever told an off-color joke, they'd be violating another one of our overly sensitive society's delicate sensibilities, and the university's president would condemn you and your family for three generations.

You'd want none of it broadcast. But at least you didn't say the n-word!

Again, not defending the assholes from OU's SAE chapter or saying your group did anything nearly that bad. But exclusionary groups spur insular thinking, and groups of young guys together are going to do inappropriate things ... this is the type of behavior that results.

I'm aware my experience is subjective, and not entirely typical at a small school with only three social fraternities, but there's a massive difference between excluding someone for demographic reasons as opposed to excluding someone because an organization has appraised that said person would be a detriment to them. Voting is a discriminatory process, as is hiring. Not everyone will be voted for, not everyone will be hired. As I'm going to guess, you probably would see a vast gap between not hiring someone because they're black and not hiring someone because you don't think they have the qualifications. The fraternities at my school (at least--I'm well aware that my experience is probably atypical, and acknowledge such) are hardly exclusionary on the basis of race, religion, sexuality, or class.

Gotta call bullsh[inks] on you. I don't say this as some sort of homo-touting prude, but I know damn well there wasn't a single frat within 2,000 miles of where I went to school that didn't have a pack of a-holes that got sh[inks]faced drunk every weekend, laughed at fags because it was the popular thing to do in a group of good ol' boys, acted like pretentious pricks around other on-campus groups, represented their universities in the worst way possible at sporting events, and probably committed their fair share of date rape. The surface-level qualifications mean nothing compared to the herd mentality of the clique.

For the record, I was an asshole in college, too.

Broad brush? Yeah, sure. I'll admit that I have a special dislike for fraternities and sororities. And I'll agree with you that there's a big difference between not hiring based on qualifications versus not hiring based on race / religion / orientation / etc. There's also a big difference between the insularity a business encourages versus whatever a fraternity or sorority could possibly encourage (outside of BS mottos and boilerplate values), and more often than not, their exclusionary tendencies boil down to the lowest common denominators.

Um... I think you would know better than to tar all with one brush.

I have never done ANY-THING that I (nor anyone else) would call reprehensible - sure I've done stupid things that I wouldn't want on YouTube, but they certainly were self-inflicted acts of stupidity that didn't involve belittling, attacking, assaulting or offending anyone. I'd urge against suggesting, even in passing, that I would or have.

As I said, this was not your standard frat, I was asked by 'those types' to join and refused, for those exact reasons. For the record, there was no binge-drinking, none of the stereotypical parties, no cruising around for women to take advantage of. It was multi-racial, multi-faith, lots of different socio-economic backgrounds, gay and straight etc etc.

Of the number of bids I received, it was the only one that seemed to fit my own sensibilities and views, ie not your typical frat.

As I said, mine was highly unusual, considering I saw a guy get punched out of a window from another house across the park. I didn't live in the house, but I spent my nights there playing poker, playstation and bags and the only drinking was an occasional game of beer-pong. The binge-drinking and total stupidity came from living in graduate apartments with other foreign students.

[Joe Biden 2020]

Wait, has Bushie been claiming that there are no Confederate flag emblems at all in Oklahoma? That's patently ridiculous. Granted, I actually live in the Heart of the Old Confederacy (but historically, a part of it that was about as anti-secession as you can get; I think it's comparable to Oklahoma in that regard) and if I really pay attention, I'll see the damn thing at least once somewhere (novelty plate, actual SoCV license plate, decal, actual flag flying in someone's yard) every time I drive for 20 minutes.

I did not say that, and I explicitly stated the opposite.  There are confederate flags in Oklahoma, but mostly in the redneck trailer parks than in the main cities of OKC, Tulsa, Lawton, Enid, Stillwater, etc.  That is not to say they don't exist in those cities, but I have not seen any in Tulsa in my nearly 11 months here.

[Joe Biden 2020]

I have just crossed underneath 13 days until my new career.  The time is drawing near.  First, though, I get a mini-Spring Break vacation at my parents this week.  I will head down to my parents this afternoon (Tuesday) and spend the next five nights with them.

[Lief 🗽]

Did you do any standing today? (Apparently walking is RIP so we'll not even dwell on that)

[J-Mann]

I have just crossed underneath 13 days until my new career.  The time is drawing near.  First, though, I get a mini-Spring Break vacation at my parents this week.  I will head down to my parents this afternoon (Tuesday) and spend the next five nights with them.

So, mini-vacation and no plans to acclimate your body to a more-physical environment?

[Panda Express]

I don't blame you for taking a vacation, Bushie. You've been working really hard so you've certainly earned it.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

I have just crossed underneath 13 days until my new career.  The time is drawing near.  First, though, I get a mini-Spring Break vacation at my parents this week.  I will head down to my parents this afternoon (Tuesday) and spend the next five nights with them.

Vacation from what? 

[Mr. Morden]

I have just crossed underneath 13 days until my new career.  The time is drawing near.  First, though, I get a mini-Spring Break vacation at my parents this week.  I will head down to my parents this afternoon (Tuesday) and spend the next five nights with them.

Vacation from what? 

From walking a few minutes a day.  It can be pretty exhausting, and Bushie needs a break.

[Indy Texas]

If your point is that exclusionary groups are going to foster a less-than-ideal mindset in regards to "out" groups, I guess that's not entirely deniable. It's also going to foster a sense of in-group loyalty that I view as, in many ways, constructive--granting people a smaller, more palpable community than their larger university that they can work to actively build and support.

I think you're overlooking the fact that power dynamics do exist. If you have an in-group that not only seeks to maintain a certain level of privilege above the out-groups, and does so in practice, then, yes, that is a problem.

You say exclusion comes not from race or socioeconomic class, but from that standard trope about being "a good fit." That's the same argument that any overwhelmingly white, male organization will use to justify enforcing homogeneity.

My freshman year of college, I lived in a dorm that fraternities tended to recruit very heavily from, and every semester the various chapters would post rush events on communal bulletin boards and sometimes slip fliers under your door or in your mailbox. The events in question tended to be things like skeet shooting, cigar smokers and going to the driving range. In other words, things that upscale white men tend to enjoy, and things that people who do not come from such a background are going to be unfamiliar with, uncomfortable with and probably avoid. Being from Yankee-and-immigrant stock, I've never felt comfortable around firearms; I also eschew golf and abhor anything involving tobacco; I'm also rather contrarian in general, so that was an avenue that I did not pursue in college.

This might not be a huge problem in and of itself, but when you create a system where membership in said organization can give you substantial advantage in things like getting a job after graduation, you've created a hurdle that can only be cleared by passing through a filter whose criteria is conveniently correlated with being...an affluent white male.

[BaconBacon96]

I have to ask, what happened in Oklahoma? Something about a racist University fraternity?

[Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck]

Is anyone truly shocked by the behavior of these SAE douches? I mean, I understand they're saying some pretty terrible sh[inks], and since it was captured on video, they're essentially representing the University ... but come on.

This is how ALL frat douches act. They may not say the n-word, but guaranteed they're douching it up being exclusionary against SOMEONE. THAT'S WHAT FRATERNITIES ARE ... exclusionary organizations. Certain people don't make it in ... could be money, could be looks, could be race, could be religion. They exclude based on SOMETHING in each and every case. Hell, historically black fraternities don't have a hell of a lot of white people, either. Do they say some sh[inks] behind closed doors that people would be "shocked" by?

Yeah, probably so.

So while these douches are particularly vile because of the sh[inks] they were saying ... which, for the record, I can't defend other than it being technically protected speech ... they are representing every single fraternity's essential, core behavior.

This shouldn't surprise anyone.

You live out in Kansas, J-Mann.  I'm sure the fraternities out there are just the worst.  I was in a fraternity at Rutgers Camden and yes we absolutely drank like degenerates but we had blacks and browns and whites and gays and straights...  And we did everything we could to include people who seemed to have a genuine interest in frat life.  We didn't exclude anyone who legitimately wanted to join and give back.