Liberal opinion of Bill Maher's views on Islam...

[The Free North]

In light of the recent attacks on Paris, i'm interested to see what those on the left think of Maher's views of Islam. Do you tend to agree with him in that much Islam is inconsistent with liberal principles or do you believe he is bigoted more than anything else?

A sampling for those unaware

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vln9D81eO60&spfreload=10
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvgdPAEu8vA&spfreload=10

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

He's a blithering idiot who doesn't know much about Islam.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

He's a blithering idiot who doesn't know much about Islam.

That is putting it too kindly.

[Goldwater]

My problem with these kinds of comments is that focus too much on criticizing Islam as a religion, rather than focusing on real issue of theocracy in general.

[TNF]

I'm not a liberal, but you also included 'the Left' in your opening post, so I'll weigh in.

Bill Maher is a racist.

[Lief 🗽]

Bill Maher is a racist.

[Marokai Backbeat]

So I'm guessing this will be another thread that just hates on Bill Maher without responding to anything he specifically said.

[politicus]

Bill Maher is a racist.

[King]

No.

[ElectionsGuy]

He's a blithering idiot who doesn't know much about Islam.

[Lief 🗽]

Bill Maher is a racist.

No I definitely know what it means. And Bill Maher is a racist.

[Illuminati Blood Drinker]

He's a blithering idiot who doesn't know much about Islam.

[BaconBacon96]

I have a new found respect for Michael Steele.

[bedstuy]

I don't think he's racist and I generally agree with Bill Maher on Islam.  I think he's lacking in nuance in those soundbites and I don't think he's any type of Islam expert, but I mostly agree with his points.

When people say Islam they often mean a few different things and each meaning is problematic.  

Islam in theory
Islam in practice in the third world
Islam in the texts, particularly the Quran and the Hadiths

In theory:  Anyone could say, Islam could be compatible with gay rights or women's rights if they adapt their practice, theology and focus.  And, there are Muslim people like Keith Ellison who see no conflict between liberalism and Islam.  So, that's one way to look at it.

Islam in practice in the third world:  On one hand, you can't argue that governments like Sudan apply Islam in harmony with liberalism.  On the other hand, people can say Sudan is a brutal, corrupt regime that isn't a good example of what Islam is.  

In the texts:  Any long body of ancient religious text is going to be polysemic and prone to multiple interpretations.  You can find nice things in those books.  You can find justification for evil, horrible things like genocide, sexism, slavery, war crimes of various types in the Islamic holy books.  On one hand, you can interpret around all those bad things, like liberal Christians do with many of the potentially problematic parts of their books.

Bill Maher in 1350 might say that anti-Semitism was intrinsic to Christianity and maybe it is, to some extent.  But, it seems like in the western world, Christianity has gotten over whatever caused them to harass and murder Jews with a religious motivation for hundreds and hundreds of years.  And, Bill Maher might say in 1350 that Christianity inevitably led to subjugation of women, because of the sexist text in the Bible.  But, today, you'll find many liberal, feminist Christians.  

So, I think you can help but say, it's more complicated than, "Islam forces people to do these horrible things," by virtue of its text or its very essential nature.  Islam could be as benign as Judaism or Christianity, which themselves have a long way to go in jiving with modern liberal principles.  It just isn't for a variety of reasons, in 2015.  Islam is currently, as it is practiced and believed in, more fundamentalist, more regressive and less moderated by modernity compared to Judaism and Christianity.  That's just what I can't help but conclude from looking at the effect of Islam around the world.

[Sopranos Republican]

Bill Maher is a racist.

[user12345]

He's a blithering idiot who doesn't know much about Islam.

[Alcon]

Bill Maher tends to be a dick who does broad-brush commentary on everything -- although he's pretty consistent in his treatment of mainstream opinions within the Christian right.  It seems a little odd to call him a "racist," since he seems to be about as hostile toward other forms of theism.  It's just that mainstream, modern Christianity doesn't have many opinions as troubling as mainstream Islam's views toward apostasy, etc.  In that, Maher is completely right.  Few Muslims are violent, and the vast majority are good people, but Muslims (even moderate, peaceful ones) are disproportionately likely to believe some very troubling theology.  Even if you don't think that theology is true (whatever that means), do you really doubt it's sincerely-held and based on sincere religious beliefs?

So guys, does anyone disagree with bedstuy's post above, or Sam Harris's arguments (which also got widely lambasted)?  I think this is a much more interesting question, and I'm not seeing much depth in the forum's consideration of these issues.

[SWE]

Bill Maher is a racist.

[Intell]

He's a blithering idiot who doesn't know much about Islam.

[Comrade Funk]

Many of the far-left are not only afraid to criticize Islamism, they ally with Islamists. UAF, SWP UK, Stop the War Coalition. As for Liberals like myself, many are caught up on the PC bandwagon afraid to criticize a culture that does threaten liberal, secular societies. And I agree with him that all religions are stupid, but right now Islam is in it's dark ages while Christianity has passed theirs.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Bill Maher tends to be a dick who does broad-brush commentary on everything -- although he's pretty consistent in his treatment of mainstream opinions within the Christian right.  It seems a little odd to call him a "racist," since he seems to be about as hostile toward other forms of theism.  It's just that mainstream, modern Christianity doesn't have many opinions as troubling as mainstream Islam's views toward apostasy, etc.  In that, Maher is completely right.  Few Muslims are violent, and the vast majority are good people, but Muslims (even moderate, peaceful ones) are disproportionately likely to believe some very troubling theology.  Even if you don't think that theology is true (whatever that means), do you really doubt it's sincerely-held and based on sincere religious beliefs?

So guys, does anyone disagree with bedstuy's post above, or Sam Harris's arguments (which also got widely lambasted)?  I think this is a much more interesting question, and I'm not seeing much depth in the forum's consideration of these issues.

I disagree with bedstuy and Sam Harris. One of the chief issues I have with "the New Atheism" is its assertion that religious fundamentalism is "premordial" or out of sync with modernity. "Christian conservativsm", radical Zionism and Islamism alike are modern political ideologies that have arisen in response to perceived problems rooted in modernity. The notion that secularism or liberal democracy represents progress or modernity or rationality that stands opposed to the offspring of backwards Pre-Englightenment thought is an absurd account of events in the Middle East. It reeks of chauvinism.

That's not say that I think that Islamism or radical Zionism or "Christian conservatism" have any merit but I think that it's important that the analysis of the rise of Islamism does not stray into the realm of Western magical thinking, which treats the dichotomy of the rational West and the unenlightened East as an assumption. It's bad social science/bad humanistic inquiry to fall back on these tropes.

"Traditional" Islam was quite tolerant of Christian and Jewish communities. The Middle East of the 19th century was pluralistic and rather tolerant in comparison to the Middle East of the 21st century. This is an oversimplification but it illustrates my point quite nicely: the problem with Islam doesn't reside in its founding texts or its rich historical tradition so much as it resides in modernity. I don't know enough about Islamic or Middle Eastern history to say much more than this.

[Indy Texas]

You can't be a liberal and a Muslim. There is no liberal tradition in Islam. You can be a pro-choice, pro-gay, pro-feminism Episcopalian or Buddhist or Reform Jew. If you hold those views and also consider yourself a Muslim, then you're being unfaithful to one or the other. I think there's plenty of ideological room for a liberal sect of Islam; but we're still waiting for someone to create it.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Many of the far-left are not only afraid to criticize Islamism, they ally with Islamists. UAF, SWP UK, Stop the War Coalition. As for Liberals like myself, many are caught up on the PC bandwagon afraid to criticize a culture that does threaten liberal, secular societies. And I agree with him that all religions are stupid, but right now Islam is in it's dark ages while Christianity has passed theirs.

How is Islamism a threat to liberal, secular societies (read: Western society)? A few terrorist attacks does not constitute a threat. It's certainly a vile ideology but the idea that it threatens the very fabric of Western society borders on hysteria. It's a fallacious assessment of the power of Islamism. It's also useful justification for self-defeating military adventures. I support launching airstrikes against ISIS but the "clash of civilizations" rhetoric implicitly demands a full-fronted military invasion and/or serious measures at home to curtail the civil liberties of Muslims.

[Lief 🗽]

You can't be a liberal and a Muslim. There is no liberal tradition in Islam. You can be a pro-choice, pro-gay, pro-feminism Episcopalian or Buddhist or Reform Jew. If you hold those views and also consider yourself a Muslim, then you're being unfaithful to one or the other. I think there's plenty of ideological room for a liberal sect of Islam; but we're still waiting for someone to create it.

I personally know a number of liberal Muslims. But I'll let them know that according to a guy on the internet they have to choose one or the other now.

[free my dawg]

You can't be a liberal and a Muslim. There is no liberal tradition in Islam. You can be a pro-choice, pro-gay, pro-feminism Episcopalian or Buddhist or Reform Jew. If you hold those views and also consider yourself a Muslim, then you're being unfaithful to one or the other. I think there's plenty of ideological room for a liberal sect of Islam; but we're still waiting for someone to create it.

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