Underage Sex Morality

[Jake]

So was he right in raping a little girl opebo? Was he a freedom fighter?

[opebo]

So was he right in raping a little girl opebo? Was he a freedom fighter?

No, his crime was not one against the authorities, but against a third party who was 'innocent' in the sense that she had nothing whatever to do with him or his problems.  However a society with 1) a somewhat more reasonable age of consent law, and 2) legalized prostitution, might have been able to vent this man's compulsions in a harmless way. 

For example he might have saved up his money and once a month visited a brothel for some sort of fairly safe sex with a young looking 16 year old.  Perhaps not something you would prefer to see happen, but I think anyone would agree preferrable to what in fact did happen.  I think we can all agree as a practical matter that the main reason these fellows rape is the lack of availability of a consensual option, and the main reason they kill (though this is less common) is that they fear prosecution.

[opebo]

So was he right in raping a little girl opebo? Was he a freedom fighter?

No, his crime was not one against the authorities, but against a third party who was 'innocent' in the sense that she had nothing whatever to do with him or his problems.  However a society with 1) a somewhat more reasonable age of consent law, and 2) legalized prostitution, might have been able to vent this man's compulsions in a harmless way. 

For example he might have saved up his money and once a month visited a brothel for some sort of fairly safe sex with a young looking 16 year old.  Perhaps not something you would prefer to see happen, but I think anyone would agree preferrable to what in fact did happen.  I think we can all agree as a practical matter that the main reason these fellows rape is the lack of availability of a consensual option, and the main reason they kill (though this is less common) is that they fear prosecution.

If you are really being serious you are really disturbing as well as disturbed.

I am being very serious and I think my conclusions are obviously correct.  Would you care to make an argument or just gape?

[opebo]

So was he right in raping a little girl opebo? Was he a freedom fighter?

No, his crime was not one against the authorities, but against a third party who was 'innocent' in the sense that she had nothing whatever to do with him or his problems.  However a society with 1) a somewhat more reasonable age of consent law, and 2) legalized prostitution, might have been able to vent this man's compulsions in a harmless way. 

For example he might have saved up his money and once a month visited a brothel for some sort of fairly safe sex with a young looking 16 year old.  Perhaps not something you would prefer to see happen, but I think anyone would agree preferrable to what in fact did happen.  I think we can all agree as a practical matter that the main reason these fellows rape is the lack of availability of a consensual option, and the main reason they kill (though this is less common) is that they fear prosecution.

If you are really being serious you are really disturbing as well as disturbed.

I am being very serious and I think my conclusions are obviously correct.  Would you care to make an argument or just gape?

I'll just gape, thank you. My mother told me to avoid sickos like you. I think her advice is sound.

Look at it this way, closed-minded one - take the age issue out of it - if all sex outside of marriage were illegal and very difficult to get, wouldn't that create a situation where rape was more likely?  And assuming harsh punishments such as the death penalty for rape, wouldn't that make the rapist more likely to kill his victim in hopes of reduce the chance of being caught?

[Jake]

That's absolutely no reason to try to qualify why he brutally raped and buried alive a little girl. That's the worst thing you've said on this forum.

[opebo]

That's absolutely no reason to try to qualify why he brutally raped and buried alive a little girl. That's the worst thing you've said on this forum.

I'm not 'qualifying' anything.  We know why he raped the little girl - he wanted to have sex with her (or someone similar).  As for killing her that was almost certainly done as an attempt to reduce the likelihood of getting caught.
I'm talking about how to reduce the incidence of such occurences.  My plan outlined above would enormously reduce their frequency.

[opebo]

...that when a cold blooded killer and sick bastard pervert kills a child you come to his defense!

I'm not 'coming to his defense'.  People always say that when you attempt to understand the motivations of someone like this, in an effort to prevent similar crimes.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I sympathize with your loss, and apologize if I offended.  But I never made any statement that Couy was 'one of the good guys'.  His actions of forcible rape and murder are at the top of any society's list of things we want to prevent people from doing.  However I do believe that some of his motivations may be tolerable, and that if we tolerated their actualization - for example through legalized prostitution and a reduction of the 'age of consent' - we might avoid the extreme reaction to frustration we see in this case. 

Personally I believe anything consensual and non-violent (in the coercive sense) should be permitted, simply as a matter of individual autonomy.  I simply don't care about other people's sex lives, what they do, age of partners, etc.  What I have been doing in this thread is making a practical argument that having a society with a high degree of social control, as we do, will tend to lead to horrific, violent breaches of that control, on occasion.  I stand by that analysis.

[dazzleman]

It's crazy to think that a man raped a child and buried her alive simply because he wanted sex, and couldn't get it because of a "repressive" society.

This was not about sex, but violence.  And with the drugged up losers that guy was hanging around with, I'm sure he had plenty of opportunities for sex.  It's not as if sex is illegal, and unavailable from coked-up bimbos and heroin whores.  There are plenty of them around.

Puberty does not mean sexual or emotional maturity.  Adults who take advantage of a teenager's inexperience and emotional immaturity can inflict great harm.  I know people who were molested as children, and it does them great psychological harm.  That kind of sex is not fun for them.

[opebo]

This was not about sex, but violence.  And with the drugged up losers that guy was hanging around with, I'm sure he had plenty of opportunities for sex.  It's not as if sex is illegal, and unavailable from coked-up bimbos and heroin whores.  There are plenty of them around.

I think it is safe to assume that he found the girl more attractive than 'coked-up bimbos and heroin whores'.  The thing about illegal prostitution in the US is not only the high cost and danger, but the extremely poor quality of the merchandise.  If you think about it this is inevitable - illegality and the threat of prosecution keeps higher quality out of the profession.  I think a legal industry would attract lots of poor girls who would otherwise work in Walmart, etc, so attractive 18-20 year olds for a reasonable price (say $50-100/hour) would not be uncommon.

I know the mantra is that rape is about violence, not sex.  I'm highly skeptical of that, not only because of the obvious sexual act involved, but also because sex itself always has a large 'power' element to it even in consensual interactions.  But just for the sake of argument, I'll assume this violence argument has some merit - lets look again at the man's motivation.  He is poor, an utter outcast and completely degraded in our society, where only one who is upper-middle class or above is really a full fledged citizen or respected member of society.  I suspect in a society that was considerate of people at his level - for example Scandinavia - he would have far less motivation to act out in reaction to his feeling of powerlessness.

[minionofmidas]

Let's just say that...while you are right in a sense...these sort of crimes happen over here too.

[opebo]

Let's just say that...while you are right in a sense...these sort of crimes happen over here too.

I'm sure they do!  But I suspect that the rate of such things as rape, murder, and serial killing is far, far lower than in the USA.  Social and economic policy has a lot more to do with that than individual turpitude.

[minionofmidas]

Not sure about rape actually. Certainly not sure about the kind of "raping and murdering a random child" sort of horror we're talking here. I know there's no real difference in the overall crime rate. I also know there's a gigantic difference in the murder rate - in the US, it's about three times what it's here.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Opebo: shut up. Some of the stuff you've posted on this thread recently is extremely disturbing... all your doing is digging yourself deeper and deeper into that hole of yours.

[patrick1]

So was he right in raping a little girl opebo? Was he a freedom fighter?

No, his crime was not one against the authorities, but against a third party who was 'innocent' in the sense that she had nothing whatever to do with him or his problems.  However a society with 1) a somewhat more reasonable age of consent law, and 2) legalized prostitution, might have been able to vent this man's compulsions in a harmless way. 

For example he might have saved up his money and once a month visited a brothel for some sort of fairly safe sex with a young looking 16 year old.  Perhaps not something you would prefer to see happen, but I think anyone would agree preferrable to what in fact did happen.  I think we can all agree as a practical matter that the main reason these fellows rape is the lack of availability of a consensual option, and the main reason they kill (though this is less common) is that they fear prosecution.

Why exactly is innocent in quotes???  ^^^

[Democratic Hawk]

Opebo: shut up. Some of the stuff you've posted on this thread recently is extremely disturbing... all your doing is digging yourself deeper and deeper into that hole of yours.

Very disturbing. Would it worthwhile praying for his soul? Under-age sex is under-age sex, It's wrong. Simple as that! Sadly, some cultures have no regard for the child in that they become adults too soon

Dave

[opebo]

So was he right in raping a little girl opebo? Was he a freedom fighter?

No, his crime was not one against the authorities, but against a third party who was 'innocent' in the sense that she had nothing whatever to do with him or his problems.  However a society with 1) a somewhat more reasonable age of consent law, and 2) legalized prostitution, might have been able to vent this man's compulsions in a harmless way. 

For example he might have saved up his money and once a month visited a brothel for some sort of fairly safe sex with a young looking 16 year old.  Perhaps not something you would prefer to see happen, but I think anyone would agree preferrable to what in fact did happen.  I think we can all agree as a practical matter that the main reason these fellows rape is the lack of availability of a consensual option, and the main reason they kill (though this is less common) is that they fear prosecution.

Why exactly is innocent in quotes???  ^^^

Because I don't believe in 'innocence' or 'guilt' in the moral sense, and didn't want to imply I did.  I meant it in the more practical sense of involvment or causation.

[opebo]

Opebo: shut up. Some of the stuff you've posted on this thread recently is extremely disturbing... all your doing is digging yourself deeper and deeper into that hole of yours.

Very disturbing. Would it worthwhile praying for his soul? Under-age sex is under-age sex, It's wrong. Simple as that! Sadly, some cultures have no regard for the child in that they become adults too soon

Dave

What rot.  Al, I'm making excellent arguments and no one is refuting them, merely acting outraged.

Dave, calling sex 'wrong'  under an arbitrarily defined age limit is ridiculous.  So it is 'right' to have sex above 18?  In some states 17 or 16 is legal.. so which state is right?  In many countries 15 or even twelve is legal - I guess that makes the US superior to them?  What if a country exsisted where it was 21?  Or 25?  Would that make the US 'wrong'?

Perhaps you aught to be trying to get your elected representatives to raise the age of consent.  What would be a good age?  25ish?  Or maybe we could just make pre-marital sex illegal.

What rot to say it is 'wrong'.  All you're saying is that you don't like it.

[Democratic Hawk]

Opebo: shut up. Some of the stuff you've posted on this thread recently is extremely disturbing... all your doing is digging yourself deeper and deeper into that hole of yours.

Very disturbing. Would it worthwhile praying for his soul? Under-age sex is under-age sex, It's wrong. Simple as that! Sadly, some cultures have no regard for the child in that they become adults too soon

Dave

What rot.  Al, I'm making excellent arguments and no one is refuting them, merely acting outraged.

Dave, calling sex 'wrong'  under an arbitrarily defined age limit is ridiculous.  So it is 'right' to have sex above 18?  In some states 17 or 16 is legal.. so which state is right?  In many countries 15 or even twelve is legal - I guess that makes the US superior to them?  What if a country exsisted where it was 21?  Or 25?  Would that make the US 'wrong'?

Perhaps you aught to be trying to get your elected representatives to raise the age of consent.  What would be a good age?  25ish?  Or maybe we could just make pre-marital sex illegal.

What rot to say it is 'wrong'.  All you're saying is that you don't like it.

Opebo, I'd go as far to suggest a universal age of consent of 16 years

Dave

[opebo]

I'd go as far to suggest a universal age of consent of 16 years

Dave

And I would suggest 12. 

[Jake]

I'd go as far to suggest a universal age of consent of 16 years

Dave

And I would suggest 12. 

Because you're a pedophile. I know of maybe 2 kids in my 250 kid grade that were mature enough for sex by age 12.  The rest were still children.  Up until even 15-16 there are still a majority who are to immature for sex. 

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I am not acting outraged. I am outraged. There's a difference.

[patrick1]

I'd go as far to suggest a universal age of consent of 16 years

Dave

And I would suggest 12. 

You really are a filthy piece of trash.  What is that 7th or 8th grade at most? 

[minionofmidas]

"Underage sex is wrong"? Hey, I may very well have had more sex before I was 18 then after. Which is saying more than I should let on about my heartbreaking abilities these days. Anyways, that was "wrong"? I think it's my turn to act outraged soon.

[Gabu]

Al, I'm making excellent arguments and no one is refuting them, merely acting outraged.

The extent to which an argument is excellent is measured by how many people are subsequently convinced of the validity of its conclusions; therefore, purely objectively speaking, your arguments are not excellent, but horrible beyond belief, as you have not only convinced no one at all, but you are also actively repelling any possiblity there might have been of one even considering your argument.

One point I noticed in particular:

You say...

Dave, calling sex 'wrong' under an arbitrarily defined age limit is ridiculous.

...and then you go on to say...

I would suggest 12 [as a universal age of consent].

What exactly makes 12 the magical number?  Isn't that just as arbitrarily defined as 16?

[opebo]

One point I noticed in particular:

You say...

Dave, calling sex 'wrong' under an arbitrarily defined age limit is ridiculous.

...and then you go on to say...

I would suggest 12 [as a universal age of consent].

What exactly makes 12 the magical number?  Isn't that just as arbitrarily defined as 16?

That is a very good observation.  Certainly I would prefer there to be no set age of consent, and no State interference in the issue.  However the age of 12 bears a closer relationship with physical maturity and onset of sexual desires than does 16.