Senate Protest and Analysis Thread

[Vepres]

Might as well re-post this here:

Here's a reasonable (I think) compromise between Marokai and his folk, and the more pro-regionalist folks such as PiT and NCYankee.

An upper house that would function much as the US Senate functions today in terms of power and procedure. It would be composed of five members, one from each region, who would have a term of a to be determined length. Each region would choose how they are selected/retained. Will they be elected? Appointed by the Governor or legislature? Will they have to be retained by a vote or simply reappointed?

Of course, you could also just have them be elected, whatever the ultimate idea is.

As a citizen and Governor of a region, I would urge the Senators to consider my idea, as I feel it is a good compromise.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Might as well re-post this here:

Here's a reasonable (I think) compromise between Marokai and his folk, and the more pro-regionalist folks such as PiT and NCYankee.

An upper house that would function much as the US Senate functions today in terms of power and procedure. It would be composed of five members, one from each region, who would have a term of a to be determined length. Each region would choose how they are selected/retained. Will they be elected? Appointed by the Governor or legislature? Will they have to be retained by a vote or simply reappointed?

Of course, you could also just have them be elected, whatever the ultimate idea is.

As a citizen and Governor of a region, I would urge the Senators to consider my idea, as I feel it is a good compromise.

Would never fly, cause Marokai, JAs and co already have there "compromise" and everyone who opposes it is an ideologue who refuses to compromise.

[Franzl]

I think the Council of Governors provides sufficient regional representation, I might even view it as strengthening regions, considering they would be able to block legislation entirely.

[Hash]

I tend to prefer Vepres' proposal over the CoG thing myself, but only if the seats in the upper house are elected. Also, if we establish bicameralism, it must be equal and qualified bicameralism and not one house-and-a-half stuff.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Well yeah, NCY. Kind of.

First of all, you and the regionalists have not given any coherent reason as to why we need regions involved in the process. You either decline to debate the issue entirely, claim any small issue of reform is a power grab, or just give incoherent or contradictory explanations. So I've been incredibly frustrated, because debate is the only way I know how to go about these things, and when people deny me that avenue, I don't know how to approach any of you.

Secondly, it IS a compromise already. We want an all at-large Senate, you want the regions to continue interfering in the legislature and warping our representation. An all at-large Senate gives fair (and exciting) representation to the Senate, a CoG allows regions to maintain their representation in the federal government, and spurs competition for the Governorships of Atlasia. We've been over this countless times but you and others refuse to listen. PiT said the only way he would tolerate a CoG is if they were given extraordinary power. When that's the starting point, it's impossible to progress and find middle ground.

I tend to prefer Vepres' proposal over the CoG thing myself, but only if the seats in the upper house are elected. Also, if we establish bicameralism, it must be equal and qualified bicameralism and not one house-and-a-half stuff.

Paging the Constitutional Convention..

[Hash]

I tend to prefer Vepres' proposal over the CoG thing myself, but only if the seats in the upper house are elected. Also, if we establish bicameralism, it must be equal and qualified bicameralism and not one house-and-a-half stuff.

Paging the Constitutional Convention..

I'm sorry, but the abolish regional seats in return for a CoG is basically bicameralism, like it or not, and I've made it clear already that I will only personally stand for full bicameralism and a one-and-a-half-cameralism and nothing else.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I didn't mean that they be given any more power than the regional Senate seats already afford. However, when the regional Senate seats are replaced by a body that cannot propose or vote on bills, but merely veto them, why should we be happy?

     As I made a point of saying once, people think that the Atlasian right is just about saying nay to this, saying nay to that, so on & so forth. When we have to fight tooth & nail to make people realize we actually have proposals for new policies, doesn't it make sense that we don't want our position to be reduced to making it easier to say nay?

[Marokai Backbeat]

I tend to prefer Vepres' proposal over the CoG thing myself, but only if the seats in the upper house are elected. Also, if we establish bicameralism, it must be equal and qualified bicameralism and not one house-and-a-half stuff.

Paging the Constitutional Convention..

I'm sorry, but the abolish regional seats in return for a CoG is basically bicameralism, like it or not, and I've made it clear already that I will only personally stand for full bicameralism and a one-and-a-half-cameralism and nothing else.

Your solution would simply duplicate the problems we already face in regional Senate elections, create a line of additional offices we may struggle to fill and maintain, and turns a blind eye to the inactivity of the races for Governor.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Well yeah, NCY. Kind of.

First of all, you and the regionalists have not given any coherent reason as to why we need regions involved in the process. You either decline to debate the issue entirely, claim any small issue of reform is a power grab, or just give incoherent or contradictory explanations. So I've been incredibly frustrated, because debate is the only way I know how to go about these things, and when people deny me that avenue, I don't know how to approach any of you.

Secondly, it IS a compromise already. We want an all at-large Senate, you want the regions to continue interfering in the legislature and warping our representation. An all at-large Senate gives fair (and exciting) representation to the Senate, a CoG allows regions to maintain their representation in the federal government, and spurs competition for the Governorships of Atlasia. We've been over this countless times but you and others refuse to listen. PiT said the only way he would tolerate a CoG is if they were given extraordinary power. When that's the starting point, it's impossible to progress and find middle ground.

I tend to prefer Vepres' proposal over the CoG thing myself, but only if the seats in the upper house are elected. Also, if we establish bicameralism, it must be equal and qualified bicameralism and not one house-and-a-half stuff.

Paging the Constitutional Convention..

When are you going to address my concerns about the CoG not being able to introduce legislation? When are you going to at least stop condescending to us in our intent. Our intent is to keep the current balance senate. You refuse to listen as well.

I tend to prefer Vepres' proposal over the CoG thing myself, but only if the seats in the upper house are elected. Also, if we establish bicameralism, it must be equal and qualified bicameralism and not one house-and-a-half stuff.

Paging the Constitutional Convention..

I'm sorry, but the abolish regional seats in return for a CoG is basically bicameralism, like it or not, and I've made it clear already that I will only personally stand for full bicameralism and a one-and-a-half-cameralism and nothing else.

Your solution would simply duplicate the problems we already face in regional Senate elections, create a line of additional offices we may struggle to fill and maintain, and turns a blind eye to the inactivity of the races for Governor.

Why don't you answer his f**king question, stupid, instead of attacking his postion. You are the reason debate doesn't occur on this, you and your ego, Marokai.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Upper houses are usually for modification and sometimes veto, not for introducing legislation.

[Purple State]

There is definitely a way to make a CoG work with more than simple veto power. If we can all agree to work on something where the CoG has similar power to the President's line-item veto, I think it warrants discussion.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

You want to kill two birds with one stone, Marokai, but still you fail to realise just how incompatible a CoG is for me. I am a strong beleive in separation of powers and this violates that. I have a plan to make the Governors more excited but your friends keep standing in my way for Partisan advantage a common ploy as you yourself just voted a certain way on an Amendment to suit your other goals. Thats why I wish BK and his compadres would work to restore the initiative process if they feel an assembly is unexceptable but there again, nothing. We could give Governor's more of a say in the Intiative process.

Also as Hashemite said, the CoG is basical 1 and 1/2 cameralism.

[Franzl]

It's a shame people here don't regard Atlasia as a what it is, a game, rather than what ideal government in the real world must be like.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Upper houses are usually for modification and sometimes veto, not for introducing legislation.

Thats not how it is in the US and that will always be an unnacceptable two faced lie instead of a compromise in my book.

You guys don't want to compromise either.

There is definitely a way to make a CoG work with more than simple veto power. If we can all agree to work on something where the CoG has similar power to the President's line-item veto, I think it warrants discussion.

Nothing less then full legislative powers shall be acceptable as a compromise. And even then you aren't even discussing or dealing with the major deal breaker and that is that the CoG violates Separation of Powers making the CoG or any modification of it unnacceptable.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

It's a shame people here don't regard Atlasia as a what it is, a game, rather than what ideal government in the real world must be like.

Its an elections game with a political simulation to make the elections worth having. It is not however a game of charades. If thats what you want I suggest you look for a different site. I fully intend to argue for nothing less then what I truly beleive here.

[Franzl]

If thats what you want I suggest you look for a different site. I fully intend to argue for nothing less then what I truly beleive here.

Then argue for what you believe in you holier-than-thou arrogant prick. I'll do precisely the same thing, and we'll see where that gets us.

[Purple State]

You want to kill two birds with one stone, Marokai, but still you fail to realise just how incompatible a CoG is for me. I am a strong beleive in separation of powers and this violates that. I have a plan to make the Governors more excited but your friends keep standing in my way for Partisan advantage a common ploy as you yourself just voted a certain way on an Amendment to suit your other goals. Thats why I wish BK and his compadres would work to restore the initiative process if they feel an assembly is unexceptable but there again, nothing. We could give Governor's more of a say in the Intiative process.

Also as Hashemite said, the CoG is basical 1 and 1/2 cameralism.

The mere size of Atlasia makes "separation of powers" between regional and federal unnecessary. Of course, full disclosure, I advocate partial dual-office holding between regional and federal so go figure.

Having a CoG makes the gubernatorial elections much more exciting, while ensuring proper regional representation on the federal level. I think this is an appropriate and pragmatic compromise for regionalists to make.

[Marokai Backbeat]

I'm willing to accept the ability of the CoG to amend legislation and send it back to the Senate. I'm uncomfortable with them introducing legislation, however. If they want something introduced it's really easy to find a willing Senator to introduce it for them.

If they do get the power to introduce legislation, they should only have the power to introduce certain types of legislation, otherwise things could get quite hectic.

[Purple State]

I'm willing to accept the ability of the CoG to amend legislation and send it back to the Senate. I'm uncomfortable with them introducing legislation, however. If they want something introduced it's really easy to find a willing Senator to introduce it for them.

If they do get the power to introduce legislation, they should only have the power to introduce certain types of legislation, otherwise things could get quite hectic.

I would agree with that.

Simply put, allowing two bodies to introduce legislation is likely to get way too complicated and messy.

I am willing to work with you, Franzl, Hash, etc. to craft something that is acceptable.

[Associate Justice PiT]

I'm willing to accept the ability of the CoG to amend legislation and send it back to the Senate. I'm uncomfortable with them introducing legislation, however. If they want something introduced it's really easy to find a willing Senator to introduce it for them.

If they do get the power to introduce legislation, they should only have the power to introduce certain types of legislation, otherwise things could get quite hectic.

     That definitely sounds like an interesting proposal. Giving them the ability to modify bills as well as vote them down is a much better deal than just letting them vote it down.

     It might be anathema to certain people, but I think that if this proposal is passed amendments should be required to pass the Council of Governors as well as the Senate. It might be acceptable to me to require a mere majority rather than a supermajority, though.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

If thats what you want I suggest you look for a different site. I fully intend to argue for nothing less then what I truly beleive here.

Then argue for what you believe in you holier-than-thou arrogant prick. I'll do precisely the same thing, and we'll see where that gets us.

You ask me to compromise what I beleive because "its a game". I am sorry if I am not the moderate hero you thought I was originally. You didn't have to come to my office thread and say " I trully like the way you operate". I am not moderate. I am insane, mentally unstable right wing extremist with a populist tilt who hates Liberals, Socialists, Centrists, hypocrits, and especially modern Europeans with few exceptions. You fit four of those, so things never looked good for us from the start.

You know the irony is, I wasn't intending to be holier then thou. I guess its too late now to clarify that though.

[Franzl]

If thats what you want I suggest you look for a different site. I fully intend to argue for nothing less then what I truly beleive here.

Then argue for what you believe in you holier-than-thou arrogant prick. I'll do precisely the same thing, and we'll see where that gets us.

You ask me to compromise what I beleive because "its a game". I am sorry if I am not the moderate hero you thought I was originally. You didn't have to come to my office thread and say " I trully like the way you operate". I am not moderate. I am insane, mentally unstable right wing extremist with a populist tilt who hates Liberals, Socialists, Centrists, hypocrits, and especially modern Europeans with few exceptions. You fit four of those, so things never looked good for us from the start.

You know the irony is, I wasn't intending to be holier then thou. I guess its too late now to clarify that though.

I suppose I had to learn that through experience, but your own recognition of those facts does suggest that not all hope is lost.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

If thats what you want I suggest you look for a different site. I fully intend to argue for nothing less then what I truly beleive here.

Then argue for what you believe in you holier-than-thou arrogant prick. I'll do precisely the same thing, and we'll see where that gets us.

You ask me to compromise what I beleive because "its a game". I am sorry if I am not the moderate hero you thought I was originally. You didn't have to come to my office thread and say " I trully like the way you operate". I am not moderate. I am insane, mentally unstable right wing extremist with a populist tilt who hates Liberals, Socialists, Centrists, hypocrits, and especially modern Europeans with few exceptions. You fit four of those, so things never looked good for us from the start.

You know the irony is, I wasn't intending to be holier then thou. I guess its too late now to clarify that though.

I suppose I had to learn that through experience, but your own recognition of those facts does suggest that not all hope is lost.

There is no such thing as hope. There is only disappointment. I regret a lot of things in life most notably the fact that I am in fact alive. Too say I regret saying that would just add one more thing to list of things I already regret. I didn't ask for Neurosis, I didn't ask for Depression, and I didn't ask for IBS, yet I got everyone of them. I don't see where there is any room for hope anymore. 

[Marokai Backbeat]

If thats what you want I suggest you look for a different site. I fully intend to argue for nothing less then what I truly beleive here.

Then argue for what you believe in you holier-than-thou arrogant prick. I'll do precisely the same thing, and we'll see where that gets us.

You ask me to compromise what I beleive because "its a game". I am sorry if I am not the moderate hero you thought I was originally. You didn't have to come to my office thread and say " I trully like the way you operate". I am not moderate. I am insane, mentally unstable right wing extremist with a populist tilt who hates Liberals, Socialists, Centrists, hypocrits, and especially modern Europeans with few exceptions. You fit four of those, so things never looked good for us from the start.

You know the irony is, I wasn't intending to be holier then thou. I guess its too late now to clarify that though.

I suppose I had to learn that through experience, but your own recognition of those facts does suggest that not all hope is lost.

There is no such thing as hope. There is only disappointment. I regret a lot of things in life most notably the fact that I am in fact alive. Too say I regret saying that would just add one more thing to list of things I already regret. I didn't ask for Neurosis, I didn't ask for Depression, and I didn't ask for IBS, yet I got everyone of them. I don't see where there is any room for hope anymore. 

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

If thats what you want I suggest you look for a different site. I fully intend to argue for nothing less then what I truly beleive here.

Then argue for what you believe in you holier-than-thou arrogant prick. I'll do precisely the same thing, and we'll see where that gets us.

You ask me to compromise what I beleive because "its a game". I am sorry if I am not the moderate hero you thought I was originally. You didn't have to come to my office thread and say " I trully like the way you operate". I am not moderate. I am insane, mentally unstable right wing extremist with a populist tilt who hates Liberals, Socialists, Centrists, hypocrits, and especially modern Europeans with few exceptions. You fit four of those, so things never looked good for us from the start.

You know the irony is, I wasn't intending to be holier then thou. I guess its too late now to clarify that though.

I suppose I had to learn that through experience, but your own recognition of those facts does suggest that not all hope is lost.

There is no such thing as hope. There is only disappointment. I regret a lot of things in life most notably the fact that I am in fact alive. Too say I regret saying that would just add one more thing to list of things I already regret. I didn't ask for Neurosis, I didn't ask for Depression, and I didn't ask for IBS, yet I got everyone of them. I don't see where there is any room for hope anymore. 

Thats not funny Marokai, not in the slightest. Your attempts to lighten the mood will only piss me off more. If you truly seek to escalate the situation, then I would question as to just what kind of sick f**k you really are.