Question about this game

[Hamster]

I'm reading through the government boards and seeing people debate really abstract things. In the IDS, my representatives are currently deciding whether or not to abolish toll roads and private prisons. But obviously we have neither on an internet forum, and I don't see that the effects of those things are being simulated any where. Is there some way to track the effect that these policy changes have?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

It is an aspect of the game that we have long struggled with. We have a Game Moderation team consisting of the Game Moderator, as well as the Secretary of Interior and Secretary of External Affairs, who together are to simulate various real life effects, general stories and simulate the results of the policies implemented.

The problem is that there are no direct consequences and there is a long history of people just ihnoring the GM team and doing their own thing. That is especially the case because you have people who get into these schools of though where all they want is just data and if you generate a story about a rebellion in New Mexico or more recently, an alien invasion, they bitch and complain to no end. And you have people on the other side who find the data boring and want something fun to happen like a war or rebellion or something and it is just so easy to ignore that which the GM team produces that is not desired.

Generally I have long been in the camp of wanting a balance of the two and desiring that people respect what the GM team produces. But even beyond the question of respecting it is, whether they even know or see what the GM team is doing in their threads as many just never check them and we go through long periods with no media operations (though fortunately that has changed these past few weeks with a revival of papers and so forth).

[Simfan34]

I'm reading through the government boards and seeing people debate really abstract things. In the IDS, my representatives are currently deciding whether or not to abolish toll roads and private prisons. But obviously we have neither on an internet forum, and I don't see that the effects of those things are being simulated any where. Is there some way to track the effect that these policy changes have?

As Game Moderator, that is my job.

[Hamster]

I'm reading through the government boards and seeing people debate really abstract things. In the IDS, my representatives are currently deciding whether or not to abolish toll roads and private prisons. But obviously we have neither on an internet forum, and I don't see that the effects of those things are being simulated any where. Is there some way to track the effect that these policy changes have?

As Game Moderator, that is my job.

How do you hold people accountable?

It seems to me like this forum smashes two games together; a government simulator and an election simulator. If it's a government simulator than the GM should control election outcomes to provide consequences for the policies implemented by the governments. If it's an election simulator than there shouldn't be any weird government sh**t that isn't relevant to the forum.

Just my two cents.

[Simfan34]

Control election outcomes? I like the cut of your jib. A nice idea, but people don't always vote "correctly" in real life, either. Yes, there is the issue of a lack of self-interest in voting, but I think it's manageable. The problem is that, until fairly recently, the GM's main responsibility was to act as a glorified accountant- mostly researching budgets and producing cost/revenue estimates for bills. To their credit, my immediate predecessors (Adam Griffin and Averroes Nix) have turned that around and taken a greater role in simulation.

The GM has a wide remit of tools- far wider than I think most people believe it to be- for controlling and moderating the course of the game. There is a certain element of glibness necessary- the very long Mental Health Bill that was in the Senate last year being a prime example of what happens when that's not the case. You can't be overly detailed lest you be uninteresting, and in turn the GM shouldn't nitpick.

But I think, yes, there has been insufficient simulation in general and regarding the effects of legislation that differs from the US (we often just seem to hold all things equal), and that's something I'd like to get to, have people observe and respond to these effects, if need be.

[sentinel]

Cant respond now but would like to later. Great question.

[HagridOfTheDeep]

My idea was to establish the Council of Atlasian Regional Executives (CARE) as a real government panel that would more seriously address the consequences of legislation and decide how the regions should "execute" laws. The Secretary of Internal Affairs continues to be a useless position because there is no formal way to liaise with the regions. What's more, his job, if done properly, is really too big for one person to do. As it stands, if the SoIA were actually doing his job, he'd pretty much be doing it in total obscurity; the truth is, right now, the job doesn't matter.

If CARE were to actually become a working body, we could revitalize the regions, more clearly link both levels of government, and begin to look at the "nitty gritty" of what federal bills actually accomplish. The vice president could chair the panel as a representative of the federal government, which would immediately give the vice president more responsibilities (another issue in the game). Regional legislatures could work with their regional executives to craft proposals for CARE. The feds are giving the regions some money for mass transit? All right, let's give the regions a way to collaborate.

We spent so much time talking about how terrible the regions are, but to me, they have so much potential. Unfortunately, I've proposed this idea a number of times in conversation and no one seems interested. But I agree that we don't often see the consequences of the policies we enact. It would be good to change that.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Sounds like a good idea Hagrid. Is that something the regions can establish with each other or is there a federal role?

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

My idea was to establish the Council of Atlasian Regional Executives (CARE) as a real government panel that would more seriously address the consequences of legislation and decide how the regions should "execute" laws. The Secretary of Internal Affairs continues to be a useless position because there is no formal way to liaise with the regions. What's more, his job, if done properly, is really too big for one person to do. As it stands, if the SoIA were actually doing his job, he'd pretty much be doing it in total obscurity; the truth is, right now, the job doesn't matter.

If CARE were to actually become a working body, we could revitalize the regions, more clearly link both levels of government, and begin to look at the "nitty gritty" of what federal bills actually accomplish. The vice president could chair the panel as a representative of the federal government, which would immediately give the vice president more responsibilities (another issue in the game). Regional legislatures could work with their regional executives to craft proposals for CARE. The feds are giving the regions some money for mass transit? All right, let's give the regions a way to collaborate.

We spent so much time talking about how terrible the regions are, but to me, they have so much potential. Unfortunately, I've proposed this idea a number of times in conversation and no one seems interested. But I agree that we don't often see the consequences of the policies we enact. It would be good to change that.

I've wanted to reform numerous things, but people are afraid of change, so we sit back and stagnate and people leave the game claiming it has run its course.

For example, the GM position. I am hopeful Simfan does a good job, but keeping that job filled is like pulling teeth, and it shouldn't be because they are basically our 'god' and without them, we have no idea what state the country is in.

I'd love to make a panel or something, but who would serve on it? Would filling it be as difficult as the GM job? People have mentioned creating a multiple position GM, but is that possible given the lack of interest? We have some ideas for reform, but if no one CARES to participate in them, then they are sadly dead on arrival.

Like right now, I have no idea what state Atlasia or what progress I have made as President. We have passed bills, worked with the Pacific to get it running, but outside of our last report in March, I have no idea where we are now.

[HagridOfTheDeep]

I think it would have more legitimacy if it came down from the federal government. Ideally, the senate and CARE would send items back and forth between each other. For example, the senate could pass a transit bill specifying that it will vote on a consolidated proposal from the region within a set time frame. CARE would hash out the details, vote on its proposal, and send it back to the senate.

Re: Duke's caution that it's difficult to find people to fill positions as is, this idea would actually not create any new positions at all. CARE would involve the 5 regional executive and the vice president.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I think it would have more legitimacy if it came down from the federal government. Ideally, the senate and CARE would send items back and forth between each other. For example, the senate could pass a transit bill specifying that it will vote on a consolidated proposal from the region within a set time frame. CARE would hash out the details, vote on its proposal, and send it back to the senate.

Re: Duke's caution that it's difficult to find people to fill positions as is, this idea would actually not create any new positions at all. CARE would involve the 5 regional executive and the vice president.

So do you mean the Senate and CARE would have to agree on any new law affecting the region?

[Cincinnatus]

My idea was to establish the Council of Atlasian Regional Executives (CARE) as a real government panel that would more seriously address the consequences of legislation and decide how the regions should "execute" laws. The Secretary of Internal Affairs continues to be a useless position because there is no formal way to liaise with the regions. What's more, his job, if done properly, is really too big for one person to do. As it stands, if the SoIA were actually doing his job, he'd pretty much be doing it in total obscurity; the truth is, right now, the job doesn't matter.

If CARE were to actually become a working body, we could revitalize the regions, more clearly link both levels of government, and begin to look at the "nitty gritty" of what federal bills actually accomplish. The vice president could chair the panel as a representative of the federal government, which would immediately give the vice president more responsibilities (another issue in the game). Regional legislatures could work with their regional executives to craft proposals for CARE. The feds are giving the regions some money for mass transit? All right, let's give the regions a way to collaborate.

Granted, you may not be paying any attention, but the Vice President has the ability to do plenty if they're willing.  The idea that they need more responsibilities is not an issue in the game, rather, Vice Presidents need to uphold their current responsibilities.  There's plenty of slots the VP can control, they uphold procedure, and they should try and act as a liason between the administration and Senate (and try to with the regions).  Of course, this doesn't matter if they delegate all their duties to the PPT and just sit there.  This is not to say though, that we can't give the VP added responsibilities.  Just an error in your point.

[sentinel]

My idea was to establish the Council of Atlasian Regional Executives (CARE) as a real government panel that would more seriously address the consequences of legislation and decide how the regions should "execute" laws. The Secretary of Internal Affairs continues to be a useless position because there is no formal way to liaise with the regions. What's more, his job, if done properly, is really too big for one person to do. As it stands, if the SoIA were actually doing his job, he'd pretty much be doing it in total obscurity; the truth is, right now, the job doesn't matter.

If CARE were to actually become a working body, we could revitalize the regions, more clearly link both levels of government, and begin to look at the "nitty gritty" of what federal bills actually accomplish. The vice president could chair the panel as a representative of the federal government, which would immediately give the vice president more responsibilities (another issue in the game). Regional legislatures could work with their regional executives to craft proposals for CARE. The feds are giving the regions some money for mass transit? All right, let's give the regions a way to collaborate.

We spent so much time talking about how terrible the regions are, but to me, they have so much potential. Unfortunately, I've proposed this idea a number of times in conversation and no one seems interested. But I agree that we don't often see the consequences of the policies we enact. It would be good to change that.

I agree w/ NC Yankee, it is difficult. Hagrid, have you seen my proposed Game Engine Team or a bicameral senate? I think your idea, while interesting, is a conflict of interest because it has Regional Executives on it and they have something to gain in the process (or lose).

My Game Engine Team proposal eliminates the SOIA and divides the GM responsibility up so that the job isn't as overwhelming or tedious --thats the goal anyway. It also tries to remove the GM and his or her subordinates from the political process. My hope is that the "regional" GMs will be taken more seriously as they have less responsibility (than one GM for the whole game with no team support) and will be able to engage the regions easier.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

My idea was to establish the Council of Atlasian Regional Executives (CARE) as a real government panel that would more seriously address the consequences of legislation and decide how the regions should "execute" laws. The Secretary of Internal Affairs continues to be a useless position because there is no formal way to liaise with the regions. What's more, his job, if done properly, is really too big for one person to do. As it stands, if the SoIA were actually doing his job, he'd pretty much be doing it in total obscurity; the truth is, right now, the job doesn't matter.

If CARE were to actually become a working body, we could revitalize the regions, more clearly link both levels of government, and begin to look at the "nitty gritty" of what federal bills actually accomplish. The vice president could chair the panel as a representative of the federal government, which would immediately give the vice president more responsibilities (another issue in the game). Regional legislatures could work with their regional executives to craft proposals for CARE. The feds are giving the regions some money for mass transit? All right, let's give the regions a way to collaborate.

Granted, you may not be paying any attention, but the Vice President has the ability to do plenty if they're willing.  The idea that they need more responsibilities is not an issue in the game, rather, Vice Presidents need to uphold their current responsibilities.  There's plenty of slots the VP can control, they uphold procedure, and they should try and act as a liason between the administration and Senate (and try to with the regions).  Of course, this doesn't matter if they delegate all their duties to the PPT and just sit there.  This is not to say though, that we can't give the VP added responsibilities.  Just an error in your point.

Some duties, like splitting votes, they cannot delegate but lets suppose it were to happen like that again. I no longer think it possible for us to do it the old way pre-split (of running SEnate between PPT and VP). There are just too many slots and too many bills to manage for one person to be able to last at it for more than a term or so without significant burnout. And besides, the VP running its slots gives a direct pathway for the administration to get its bills on the floor. All you need is a Senator to sponsor it and like I said back during the debate on making the VP a full Senator, if you cannot get a sponsor, chances are it won't get passed anyway.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

My idea was to establish the Council of Atlasian Regional Executives (CARE) as a real government panel that would more seriously address the consequences of legislation and decide how the regions should "execute" laws. The Secretary of Internal Affairs continues to be a useless position because there is no formal way to liaise with the regions. What's more, his job, if done properly, is really too big for one person to do. As it stands, if the SoIA were actually doing his job, he'd pretty much be doing it in total obscurity; the truth is, right now, the job doesn't matter.

If CARE were to actually become a working body, we could revitalize the regions, more clearly link both levels of government, and begin to look at the "nitty gritty" of what federal bills actually accomplish. The vice president could chair the panel as a representative of the federal government, which would immediately give the vice president more responsibilities (another issue in the game). Regional legislatures could work with their regional executives to craft proposals for CARE. The feds are giving the regions some money for mass transit? All right, let's give the regions a way to collaborate.

We spent so much time talking about how terrible the regions are, but to me, they have so much potential. Unfortunately, I've proposed this idea a number of times in conversation and no one seems interested. But I agree that we don't often see the consequences of the policies we enact. It would be good to change that.

I agree w/ NC Yankee, it is difficult. Hagrid, have you seen my proposed Game Engine Team or a bicameral senate? I think your idea, while interesting, is a conflict of interest because it has Regional Executives on it and they have something to gain in the process (or lose).

My Game Engine Team proposal eliminates the SOIA and divides the GM responsibility up so that the job isn't as overwhelming or tedious --thats the goal anyway. It also tries to remove the GM and his or her subordinates from the political process. My hope is that the "regional" GMs will be taken more seriously as they have less responsibility (than one GM for the whole game with no team support) and will be able to engage the regions easier.

Bicameral legislature you mean? Be kind of weird to have two senates.

How would the regional GM's be selected?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Whether's CARE or this plan that Sirnick's talking about could work, provided we can get enough to agree with the details of one or the other obviously.


Also Sirnick, I really don't see what the conflict of interest would be since Regional Execs do have an interest, but that very interest seemingly aligns with their charge under the CARE proposal, which as I understand it is designing the mechanics in a way that best works for their region.

[sentinel]

My idea was to establish the Council of Atlasian Regional Executives (CARE) as a real government panel that would more seriously address the consequences of legislation and decide how the regions should "execute" laws. The Secretary of Internal Affairs continues to be a useless position because there is no formal way to liaise with the regions. What's more, his job, if done properly, is really too big for one person to do. As it stands, if the SoIA were actually doing his job, he'd pretty much be doing it in total obscurity; the truth is, right now, the job doesn't matter.

If CARE were to actually become a working body, we could revitalize the regions, more clearly link both levels of government, and begin to look at the "nitty gritty" of what federal bills actually accomplish. The vice president could chair the panel as a representative of the federal government, which would immediately give the vice president more responsibilities (another issue in the game). Regional legislatures could work with their regional executives to craft proposals for CARE. The feds are giving the regions some money for mass transit? All right, let's give the regions a way to collaborate.

We spent so much time talking about how terrible the regions are, but to me, they have so much potential. Unfortunately, I've proposed this idea a number of times in conversation and no one seems interested. But I agree that we don't often see the consequences of the policies we enact. It would be good to change that.

I agree w/ NC Yankee, it is difficult. Hagrid, have you seen my proposed Game Engine Team or a bicameral senate? I think your idea, while interesting, is a conflict of interest because it has Regional Executives on it and they have something to gain in the process (or lose).

My Game Engine Team proposal eliminates the SOIA and divides the GM responsibility up so that the job isn't as overwhelming or tedious --thats the goal anyway. It also tries to remove the GM and his or her subordinates from the political process. My hope is that the "regional" GMs will be taken more seriously as they have less responsibility (than one GM for the whole game with no team support) and will be able to engage the regions easier.

Bicameral legislature you mean? Be kind of weird to have two senates.

How would the regional GM's be selected?

Yes, bicameral legislature. They would be selected by the GM with Senate approval. President would only select the GM with Senate approval. I've outlined it in my campaign thread.

Whether's CARE or this plan that Sirnick's talking about could work, provided we can get enough to agree with the details of one or the other obviously.


Also Sirnick, I really don't see what the conflict of interest would be since Regional Execs do have an interest, but that very interest seemingly aligns with their charge under the CARE proposal, which as I understand it is designing the mechanics in a way that best works for their region.

I was reading quickly so I could have msised something, but it looked like the Regional Executives would more or less form a committee to determine how legislation ultimately effects the regions which is a conflict of interest...because they'd be determining how their own legacy is formed --or how much their agenda costs in the end?

[HagridOfTheDeep]

Conflict of interest? What do you mean? Of course it is in their interest to fight for funds and have federal legislation meaningfully impact their regions... that's sort of the point. I'm not sure why that's a bad thing...?

Also, Cinci brought up the point about the vice president already having plenty of stuff to do. I didn't mean to denigrate the position as it exists now, and I do agree that the procedural duties on the floor of the senate are important. That being said, I have always felt like a lot of the unwritten "outreach" duties of the VP are too voluntary to actually turn into anything. While the increase VP role "post-split" has given the administration more of a voice in the senate, the regions are still often left to languish in obscurity. I mentioned including the VP in CARE because his presence would simultaneously tie in the senate and the administration to its proceedings. We could just as easily include the senate dean or someone else instead.

I've talked about this new body as if it would create proposals and send them back to the senate for a vote, sort of like this:

SENATE FRAMEWORK (SENATE VOTE) --> REGIONAL PROPOSAL (CARE VOTE) --> SENATE APPROVAL (SENATE VOTE)

BUT, I think it could just as easily work without having to send the proposal back to the senate. It would maintain the importance of the new body, keep legislative clutter low in the senate, and ensure that this proposal didn't radically alter the shape of government in Atlasia. It could instead look like this:

SENATE FRAMEWORK (SENATE VOTE) --> REGIONAL PROPOSAL (CARE VOTE)

When I was in the senate, we often sent these types of "framework bills" to the SoIA, who we hoped would "execute" our legislation. We'd say "here's $50,000,000 to distribute to the regions," and he'd try to figure it out on his own. It was too big a job and it just didn't work because he wasn't accountable to anyone and it didn't really matter if his job got done. By sending some bills to CARE, we'd now have a group of people working together on execution. The regions could decide for themselves how they approach the panel: Governors could act independently or with the input of their legislators/legislatures. The hope would be that federal debate trickles down into the regions and inspires more discussion and legislation there. Admittedly, I don't really know exactly how this whole thing would look or play out, but I think it's certainly something we could try, as it only involves the willingness of existing officeholders to give it a go. If it doesn't work, it's easily swept under the rug just like the senate committees were. Adopting a bicameral legislature is a huge change that would only induce instability, especially if it ended up "not working."

Plus, I think the big thing we need to do is to find a way to link the regions into the federal government. It often seems like there are two different games going on in Atlasia. A bicameral senate really wouldn't do anything to bridge this separation.

[sentinel]

My bicameral legislature proposal does link the regions to the federal government. That was my goal. Regional executives would make up the upper house of the legislature while the current Senate would be the lower house. Albeit my proposal gives the upper house very limited powers

[Hamster]

I don't see how any of this addresses the underlying problems of this game. No matter how active the GM is, elected officials won't pay any more attention to them than suits their own purpose. There has to be some mechanism to punish people for doing dumb sh!t.

[sentinel]

I don't see how any of this addresses the underlying problems of this game. No matter how active the GM is, elected officials won't pay any more attention to them than suits their own purpose. There has to be some mechanism to punish people for doing dumb sh!t.

The problem you want us to solve, is the same problem in reality