Chattanooga VW workers reject UAW, 53-47%

[Adam Griffin]

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Burn it down, Volkswagen. There was so much meddling by Tennessee politicians in this ordeal. We can only hope that Volkswagen will take its business someplace where the workers aren't still shucking and jiving for their landowners corporate overlords. It's sad that people still think low pay and at-will employment are freedoms and that all freedoms are denied by the existence of a union. I think the root cause as to why people around here knee-jerk to the word union is mainly because one came in 150 years ago and whooped its ass.

[badgate]

Sen. Corker said Wednesday that the plant would get a new SUV line if the vote failed.

[Indy Texas]

Sen. Corker said Wednesday that the plant would get a new SUV line if the vote failed.

Yes, and VW later denied that. Considering the plants they operate in every other country are unionized, I don't see what incentive they would have to move production to one of those if Chattanooga unionized.

I think VW should petition the NLRB for a waiver to allow them to implement the works council without having the UAW or an outside union involved. The reality is that as more and more Americans are employed by foreign firms with very different corporate cultures, we're going to have to reconsider how labor laws written in the early 20th century are relevant today.

I realize that the point of the laws originally was to keep companies from having "in-house unions" that would basically rubber stamp whatever the owner wanted to do and make employees pay dues for the privilege. But what VW wanted isn't even a union in the American sense. It wasn't about collective bargaining for wages and benefits; it was about giving employees input in decision making regarding operations.

European and Japanese companies simply do not subscribe to the uniquely American belief that the only people that matter in a company are its stockholders and that everyone else, from managers to employees to customers, can go @#$% themselves. And by trying to shoehorn these firms into an American-style labor union arrangement, we're essentially doing exactly what the people who opposed the union probably don't want to do - have politicians tell a private business how to manage its affairs.

[Torie]

Outside legal monopolies like utilities, and choke points that are the equivalent of legal monopolies, like ports, private sector unions are essentially dead. The market is a harsh mistress - always has been, and when the economic structure changed to make the economics favorable to monopolies and oligopolies, where unions could organize to grab a portion of the supra high profits that ensued a thing of the past, their ability to raise wages basically just disappeared. So from a financial standpoint, they added no benefit for workers, while levying on them costs. Over time, the workers got the "memo" and split. There is just not much money for them to grab beyond what the market dictates, without causing their employers to slowly get sick and die.

I still remember when I read the data in business school 40 years ago, that Unions outside monopolies and oligopolies did not increase wages, because I was just amazed, but then realized that is what economic theory dictates - it was at once to me elegant, and true, that that had to be the case.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Outside legal monopolies like utilities, and choke points that are the equivalent of legal monopolies, like ports, private sector unions are essentially dead. The market is a harsh mistress - always has been, and when the economic structure changed to make the economics favorable to monopolies and oligopolies, where unions could organize to grab a portion of the supra high profits that ensued a thing of the past, their ability to raise wages basically just disappeared. So from a financial standpoint, they added no benefit for workers, while levying on them costs. Over time, the workers got the "memo" and split. There is just not much money for them to grab beyond what the market dictates, without causing their employers to slowly get sick and die.

I still remember when I read the data in business school 40 years ago, that Unions outside monopolies and oligopolies did not increase wages, because I was just amazed, but then realized that is what economic theory dictates - it was at once to me elegant, and true, that that had to be the case.

As a general rule, a theory which is elegant and 'true' (especially if based on another theory) is false. Or at least a grotesque oversimplification. This is basically the story of the social sciences.

You are reading intentions into people that aren't necessarily what are those stated in the article. One wonders whether this would have failed - and the vote was close - had this occurred in some other part of the country.

[Hifly]

Oh no; Why did this happen?

[Bandit3 the Worker]

Oh no; Why did this happen?

Because some Republican politicians and right-wing think tanks interfered with the vote.

[badgate]

Sen. Corker said Wednesday that the plant would get a new SUV line if the vote failed.

Yes, and VW later denied that.

I know, but the denial was a very weak antidote to Sen. Corker's poisoning of the well.

[Bacon King]

I still remember when I read the data in business school 40 years ago, that Unions outside monopolies and oligopolies did not increase wages

I would argue that the American economy at large is essentially an oligopoly and that the automobile industry is definitely so

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I still remember when I read the data in business school 40 years ago, that Unions outside monopolies and oligopolies did not increase wages

I would argue that the American economy at large is essentially an oligopoly and that the automobile industry is definitely so

Just barely.  The big three of today (GM, Ford, and Toyota) don't command even a majority of the US market between them.  We have a big seven at the moment (GM, Ford, Toyota, Chrysler, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai/KIA) with the Germans a potential eighth if they could merge or even cooperate.  Now while it is possible to have an oligopoly with that many players, the production overcapacity in the auto industry is still too great for any of the players to have oligopic pricing power which severely limits their ability pass cost increases to consumers.

[Person Man]

Here are some of my thoughts:

Maybe Volkswagen can site interference by Government officials as a reason not to expand the Chattanooga plant?

I am both not surprised and surprised by this. If a company wants a union, why wouldn't the workers be ok with it but then again, many American workers don't want to associate with a union because they want a chance at management one day.  This is so even though a third to half of them have the education to get promoted and half of them will do the right thing at the right time and the right place to make it. Or maybe its some Christian equivalent to karma ( that there are things for those whom they are given) that keeps people from protesting what wrongs them. Any takers on this?

Then again, maybe modern Mathematics and Psychology (what is passed on as Economics today) is a reasonable guide. Companies that are more expensive to run might be profitable operations, but no one will invest in a company that will pay lower dividends. As a result, you see what happens to cities like Detroit.


This sort of makes me wonder if the next major Republican policy push would be against unions instead of social security or health care. I could easily see this becoming something that could be a winner for Republicans in 2017 if they don't get in too over their heads like Clinton did with healthcare and Obama almost did with health care. Perhaps it would be something between a National Right to Work Law or a law that will allow states to no longer have unions recognized in their states.

On the other hand, not having unions that there really is no incentive for people to stay with he company and to stay on as people that are there just to do the job they have been hired to do for periods long enough to get good at it. Without this incentive, manufacturing might become a high-turnover lower-pay industry where people create a shoddy product on the way to their next job.  

I still remember when I read the data in business school 40 years ago, that Unions outside monopolies and oligopolies did not increase wages

I would argue that the American economy at large is essentially an oligopoly and that the automobile industry is definitely so

Just barely.  The big three of today (GM, Ford, and Toyota) don't command even a majority of the US market between them.  We have a big seven at the moment (GM, Ford, Toyota, Chrysler, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai/KIA) with the Germans a potential eighth if they could merge or even cooperate.  Now while it is possible to have an oligopoly with that many players, the production overcapacity in the auto industry is still too great for any of the players to have oligopic pricing power which severely limits their ability pass cost increases to consumers.

...or more importantly, to investors.

[CountryClassSF]

Congrats to the VW workers---individualism WINS!

[Person Man]

Congrats to the VW workers---individualism WINS!

..though its in Tennessee.  Do not talk to them about self-determination outside of money.

[publicunofficial]

This whole ordeal made me dislike Corker a hell of a lot less.

[Franzl]

Dumbs will be dumbs.

[Napoleon]

Here are some of my thoughts:

Maybe Volkswagen can site interference by Government officials as a reason not to expand the Chattanooga plant?

I am both not surprised and surprised by this. If a company wants a union, why wouldn't the workers be ok with it but then again, many American workers don't want to associate with a union because they want a chance at management one day.  This is so even though a third to half of them have the education to get promoted and half of them will do the right thing at the right time and the right place to make it. Or maybe its some Christian equivalent to karma ( that there are things for those whom they are given) that keeps people from protesting what wrongs them. Any takers on this?

Then again, maybe modern Mathematics and Psychology (what is passed on as Economics today) is a reasonable guide. Companies that are more expensive to run might be profitable operations, but no one will invest in a company that will pay lower dividends. As a result, you see what happens to cities like Detroit.


This sort of makes me wonder if the next major Republican policy push would be against unions instead of social security or health care. I could easily see this becoming something that could be a winner for Republicans in 2017 if they don't get in too over their heads like Clinton did with healthcare and Obama almost did with health care. Perhaps it would be something between a National Right to Work Law or a law that will allow states to no longer have unions recognized in their states.

On the other hand, not having unions that there really is no incentive for people to stay with he company and to stay on as people that are there just to do the job they have been hired to do for periods long enough to get good at it. Without this incentive, manufacturing might become a high-turnover lower-pay industry where people create a shoddy product on the way to their next job.  

I still remember when I read the data in business school 40 years ago, that Unions outside monopolies and oligopolies did not increase wages

I would argue that the American economy at large is essentially an oligopoly and that the automobile industry is definitely so

Just barely.  The big three of today (GM, Ford, and Toyota) don't command even a majority of the US market between them.  We have a big seven at the moment (GM, Ford, Toyota, Chrysler, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai/KIA) with the Germans a potential eighth if they could merge or even cooperate.  Now while it is possible to have an oligopoly with that many players, the production overcapacity in the auto industry is still too great for any of the players to have oligopic pricing power which severely limits their ability pass cost increases to consumers.

...or more importantly, to investors.

You couldve said this five years ago.

[Person Man]

Here are some of my thoughts:

Maybe Volkswagen can site interference by Government officials as a reason not to expand the Chattanooga plant?

I am both not surprised and surprised by this. If a company wants a union, why wouldn't the workers be ok with it but then again, many American workers don't want to associate with a union because they want a chance at management one day.  This is so even though a third to half of them have the education to get promoted and half of them will do the right thing at the right time and the right place to make it. Or maybe its some Christian equivalent to karma ( that there are things for those whom they are given) that keeps people from protesting what wrongs them. Any takers on this?

Then again, maybe modern Mathematics and Psychology (what is passed on as Economics today) is a reasonable guide. Companies that are more expensive to run might be profitable operations, but no one will invest in a company that will pay lower dividends. As a result, you see what happens to cities like Detroit.


This sort of makes me wonder if the next major Republican policy push would be against unions instead of social security or health care. I could easily see this becoming something that could be a winner for Republicans in 2017 if they don't get in too over their heads like Clinton did with healthcare and Obama almost did with health care. Perhaps it would be something between a National Right to Work Law or a law that will allow states to no longer have unions recognized in their states.

On the other hand, not having unions that there really is no incentive for people to stay with he company and to stay on as people that are there just to do the job they have been hired to do for periods long enough to get good at it. Without this incentive, manufacturing might become a high-turnover lower-pay industry where people create a shoddy product on the way to their next job.  

I still remember when I read the data in business school 40 years ago, that Unions outside monopolies and oligopolies did not increase wages

I would argue that the American economy at large is essentially an oligopoly and that the automobile industry is definitely so

Just barely.  The big three of today (GM, Ford, and Toyota) don't command even a majority of the US market between them.  We have a big seven at the moment (GM, Ford, Toyota, Chrysler, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai/KIA) with the Germans a potential eighth if they could merge or even cooperate.  Now while it is possible to have an oligopoly with that many players, the production overcapacity in the auto industry is still too great for any of the players to have oligopic pricing power which severely limits their ability pass cost increases to consumers.

...or more importantly, to investors.

You couldve said this five years ago.

Maybe unions will be delegitimized next. So sayeth...God.

[Bandit3 the Worker]

This sort of makes me wonder if the next major Republican policy push would be against unions instead of social security or health care. I could easily see this becoming something that could be a winner for Republicans in 2017 if they don't get in too over their heads like Clinton did with healthcare and Obama almost did with health care. Perhaps it would be something between a National Right to Work Law or a law that will allow states to no longer have unions recognized in their states.

Unions are much too popular nationwide for this to be a winning issue.

The reason the union lost this time was that Corker and others threatened them.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

But I thought right-wingers claimed to be against workplace intimidation?

[TNF]

F**king useless politicians interfering where they're not wanted made this happen. That, and the archaic and idiotic system of how we certify unions in this country. Too bad Obama didn't have the guts to stick it out for the people who got him elected and get card check passed in 2009-10.

[Bandit3 the Worker]

Since Corker interfered, I think Obama should have interfered to set things right. Fair is fair.

[IceSpear]

This sort of makes me wonder if the next major Republican policy push would be against unions instead of social security or health care. I could easily see this becoming something that could be a winner for Republicans in 2017 if they don't get in too over their heads like Clinton did with healthcare and Obama almost did with health care. Perhaps it would be something between a National Right to Work Law or a law that will allow states to no longer have unions recognized in their states.

Unions are much too popular nationwide for this to be a winning issue.

The reason the union lost this time was that Corker and others threatened them.

They're so popular than union busters Rick Snyder, Scott Walker, and John Kasich are all favored for re-election in bluish/purplish states.

This is a shame, but no surprise. These days, even the Republican cashiers at McDonald's are just temporarily embarrassed millionaires, so they see no irony in hating unions.

[Person Man]

This sort of makes me wonder if the next major Republican policy push would be against unions instead of social security or health care. I could easily see this becoming something that could be a winner for Republicans in 2017 if they don't get in too over their heads like Clinton did with healthcare and Obama almost did with health care. Perhaps it would be something between a National Right to Work Law or a law that will allow states to no longer have unions recognized in their states.

Unions are much too popular nationwide for this to be a winning issue.

The reason the union lost this time was that Corker and others threatened them.

They're so popular than union busters Rick Snyder, Scott Walker, and John Kasich are all favored for re-election in bluish/purplish states.

This is a shame, but no surprise. These days, even the Republican cashiers at McDonald's are just temporarily embarrassed millionaires, so they see no irony in hating unions.

That sounds like a punk rock group, the "Temporarily Embarrassed Millionaires".  Like I said, if union busting made big inroads in the rust belt, it will probably be front in center in 2017, depending on how 2016 goes.

[Indy Texas]

This sort of makes me wonder if the next major Republican policy push would be against unions instead of social security or health care. I could easily see this becoming something that could be a winner for Republicans in 2017 if they don't get in too over their heads like Clinton did with healthcare and Obama almost did with health care. Perhaps it would be something between a National Right to Work Law or a law that will allow states to no longer have unions recognized in their states.

Unions are much too popular nationwide for this to be a winning issue.

The reason the union lost this time was that Corker and others threatened them.

They're so popular than union busters Rick Snyder, Scott Walker, and John Kasich are all favored for re-election in bluish/purplish states.

This is a shame, but no surprise. These days, even the Republican cashiers at McDonald's are just temporarily embarrassed millionaires, so they see no irony in hating unions.

Then clearly the solution is for rich people to get union representation too. There could be an American Federation of Managers (AFM) and a United Stockholders of America (USA! USA!). Someone has to stick up for these people!

[IceSpear]

This sort of makes me wonder if the next major Republican policy push would be against unions instead of social security or health care. I could easily see this becoming something that could be a winner for Republicans in 2017 if they don't get in too over their heads like Clinton did with healthcare and Obama almost did with health care. Perhaps it would be something between a National Right to Work Law or a law that will allow states to no longer have unions recognized in their states.

Unions are much too popular nationwide for this to be a winning issue.

The reason the union lost this time was that Corker and others threatened them.

They're so popular than union busters Rick Snyder, Scott Walker, and John Kasich are all favored for re-election in bluish/purplish states.

This is a shame, but no surprise. These days, even the Republican cashiers at McDonald's are just temporarily embarrassed millionaires, so they see no irony in hating unions.

That sounds like a punk rock group, the "Temporarily Embarrassed Millionaires".  Like I said, if union busting made big inroads in the rust belt, it will probably be front in center in 2017, depending on how 2016 goes.

If Rick Snyder is re-elected in Michigan of all places, I think that will mark the end of unions being an effective political force in this country. Walker surviving the recall was the canary in the coal mine, if Snyder wins, it will be the fat lady singing.

And yeah, I could definitely see nationwide RTW being on top of the Republican agenda if they win the presidency. Luckily that's pretty unlikely.