Kentuckians are welfare queens and they're in denial about it

[Sol]

IMO, the Democrats shouldn't embrace fracking. It's unlikely to win over Appalachian voters, for the reasons I already alluded to, and it's an environmental catastrophe.

[Indy Texas 🇺🇦🇵🇸]

 

IMO, the Democrats shouldn't embrace fracking. It's unlikely to win over Appalachian voters, for the reasons I already alluded to, and it's an environmental catastrophe.

So they're going hate the Democrats if they embrace fracking and they actually wind up with some decent paying jobs as a result. But they're also going to hate the Democrats if they take a hard environmentalist stance and hamper the coal industry.

I don't understand what these people want or what you think they want.

[Sol]

IMO, the Democrats shouldn't embrace fracking. It's unlikely to win over Appalachian voters, for the reasons I already alluded to, and it's an environmental catastrophe.

So they're going hate the Democrats if they embrace fracking and they actually wind up with some decent paying jobs as a result. But they're also going to hate the Democrats if they take a hard environmentalist stance and hamper the coal industry.

I don't understand what these people want or what you think they want.

What they want is for the Democrats to embrace coal, and by extension, other major Appalachian industries (steel etc.) through protectionistic policies. Plus the whole Social Democracy thing.

[TNF]

The title of this thread is exactly why liberals will continue to lose Appalachia.

[PJ]

Fracking is a job killer and a polluter.

Truer words have never been spoken.

----------------------

Thank you both for encapsulating the problem we are having connecting with Appalachia. 

Thank you. 

I would assume Appalachians care about their air and water quality. There have been over 1,000 cases of contaminated drinking water due to hydraulic fracturing. If expanded in Appalachia, it would only hurt them.

[All Along The Watchtower]

The title of this thread is exactly why liberals will continue to lose Appalachia.

You mean to say that educated, rich, urban people who scold poor, undereducated, deprived rural people for voting "against their best interests" (as if that were EVER clear in American politics) should STFU?

[Indy Texas 🇺🇦🇵🇸]

IMO, the Democrats shouldn't embrace fracking. It's unlikely to win over Appalachian voters, for the reasons I already alluded to, and it's an environmental catastrophe.

So they're going hate the Democrats if they embrace fracking and they actually wind up with some decent paying jobs as a result. But they're also going to hate the Democrats if they take a hard environmentalist stance and hamper the coal industry.

I don't understand what these people want or what you think they want.

What they want is for the Democrats to embrace coal, and by extension, other major Appalachian industries (steel etc.) through protectionistic policies. Plus the whole Social Democracy thing.

The whole Social Democracy thing is "handouts" that they claim they don't like.

I'm not interested in "embracing" coal any more than I am interested in "embracing" wind or natural gas or anything else. Firms are going to use energy sources based on whatever has the lowest marginal cost. You want less pollution? Get rid of Waxman-Markey and just have a carbon tax. If coal is competitive, firms will demand more of it. When there is a cheaper alternative - i.e. natural gas at the present time - they will demand less of it. That's the way markets work.

Are we going use tariffs and a redistributive energy policy to raise input costs in every other industry and for every business and consumer outside of Appalachia all for the sake of making a small group of people feel better about themselves?

If that's what you're calling for, the Democratic Party will not get my vote.

[DINGO Joe]

This whole debate over fracking?  It's a little late.  The Marcellus has gone from providing the US with 3% of it's natural gas in 2010 to 18% and still growing rapidly.  Unfortunately for Eastern Kentucky and most of WV, despite the map provided by Frodo, there is no reason to expect drilling in Kentucky or any further south than the northern tier of WV where they're already drilling.  The current new area of drilling is in Eastern Ohio in the Utica.

http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=14091

 
In a nutshell here's how the electric energy world in the US works.

Eastern US (East of Mississippi River, except Illinois and Wisconsin)--the Marcellus has led to cheaper gas prices and there's been a sharp increase in the utilization and construction of combined cycle NG electric plants (energy efficiency of 60%).  If you don't know what a combined cycle plant is and why it's vastly superior to old coal plants or even old NG plants go read wikipedia.  Old coal plants with efficency of 30% are being shut down in droves because they can't compete and they can meet EPA rules.  Coal plants that are left that meet EPA standards are looking for cheaper coal to stay competitive with NG plants.  They're switching to Illinois Basin Coal instead of CAPP (Central Appalachian--East KY, Southern WV, SW VA) coal. 

NG production and NG electric plants are both less labor intensive than coal so it's a job loser.  They're cheaper, more efficent and generate less carbon than coal so they're winners are are being embraced by anywhere not dependent on coal mining.  Bottom line is that the CAPP region is royally screwed and there is no white knight or moderate hero riding to the rescue.


For those interested, the Western US:

 Coal is produced primarily in the Powder River Basin (WY and MT).  It requires minimal labor and is super cheap even when transported long distances (Georgia has been shutting down numerous coal plants that run on CAPP but a large coal plant that run on PRB coal is in no danger of shutting down).  Thanks to favorable tax treatment, wind and more recently solar power have grown exponentially and have cut into fossil fuel usage.  Fracking West of the Mississippi has primarily and successfully focused on oil but associated gas has been produced with it, thus increasing NG production.  A couple of the original NG fracking areas (Barnett and Haynesville) have seen production flatten or fall because they include enough wet gas or petroleum and can't compete with cheaper or associated production.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I should point out that a Democratic inverse doesn't sound anywhere near as stupid or ridiculous.

Let's imagine Joe Lower Middle Class, a straight ticket Democratic voter who lives somewhere like Duluth or a blue collar suburb of Philadelphia. Joe isn't too politically active or aware, but believes that the Republicans are a bunch of working common people hating plutocrats who only care about strengthening big business and the richest people. Joe believed that if McCain or Romney won the election they would increase his taxes so they could cut taxes for the rich and big business.

Now does that sound anywhere near as absurd or idiotic as the people in the OP?

[IceSpear]

Poor white welfare queens in Appalachia aren't voting to take away their own cadillacs and steak dinners via food stamps, they're voting to stop those coloreds in those urban ghettos from stealin their hard earned tax money (even though they're too poor to pay income tax).

[IceSpear]

The title of this thread is exactly why liberals will continue to lose Appalachia.

You mean to say that educated, rich, urban people who scold poor, undereducated, deprived rural people for voting "against their best interests" (as if that were EVER clear in American politics) should STFU?

What utter bullsh**t. The GOP constantly insults poor Appalachian whites with every breath they take and every vote they make. Calling them "welfare queens", "lazy", "moochers", "takers", etc. etc. Just because they're too stupid to think that applies to them because they're white doesn't mean they're not getting verbally abused daily by the GOP. So from what I can tell, Appalachian whites are actually masochists. Maybe Dems should insult them more to try to get their votes.

[Frodo]

The title of this thread is exactly why liberals will continue to lose Appalachia.

You mean to say that educated, rich, urban people who scold poor, undereducated, deprived rural people for voting "against their best interests" (as if that were EVER clear in American politics) should STFU?

What utter bullsh**t. The GOP constantly insults poor Appalachian whites with every breath they take and every vote they make. Calling them "welfare queens", "lazy", "moochers", "takers", etc. etc. Just because they're too stupid to think that applies to them because they're white doesn't mean they're not getting verbally abused daily by the GOP. So from what I can tell, Appalachian whites are actually masochists. Maybe Dems should insult them more to try to get their votes.

Good luck with that. 

[IceSpear]

The title of this thread is exactly why liberals will continue to lose Appalachia.

You mean to say that educated, rich, urban people who scold poor, undereducated, deprived rural people for voting "against their best interests" (as if that were EVER clear in American politics) should STFU?

What utter bullsh**t. The GOP constantly insults poor Appalachian whites with every breath they take and every vote they make. Calling them "welfare queens", "lazy", "moochers", "takers", etc. etc. Just because they're too stupid to think that applies to them because they're white doesn't mean they're not getting verbally abused daily by the GOP. So from what I can tell, Appalachian whites are actually masochists. Maybe Dems should insult them more to try to get their votes.

Good luck with that. 

It works for the GOP. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[minionofmidas]

The title of this thread is exactly why liberals will continue to lose Appalachia.

You mean to say that educated, rich, urban people who scold poor, undereducated, deprived rural people for voting "against their best interests" (as if that were EVER clear in American politics) should STFU?

What utter bullsh**t. The GOP constantly insults poor Appalachian whites with every breath they take and every vote they make. Calling them "welfare queens", "lazy", "moochers", "takers", etc. etc. Just because they're too stupid to think that applies to them because they're white doesn't mean they're not getting verbally abused daily by the GOP.

The policies apply to them, the insults don't. And yes, it's because they're White.

[Link]

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So Republican racism again.  What a shock.

If you are wondering why Republican relations with African Americans and Hispanics with NEVER improve look no further than the new modern version of the southern strategy.  Tax breaks for the rich and race baiting for the white poors.  That's the strategy.

Oh, and just FYI regarding Africans for this red neck welfare mooching scumbag...

[pbrower2a]

I don't support implementing the Affordable Care Act to win votes, I support implementing it to improve people's lives so it doesn't concern me that there are some people who won't give the Democrats credit for this.

A side effect. ACA will hurt Republican pols when it works. It is beginning to work.

[DC Al Fine]

The title of this thread is exactly why liberals will continue to lose Appalachia.

TNF wins the thread. As has been said before, at least the GOP pretends to care about rural whites. The Democrats approach is "STFU about guns, coal and abortion and do what you're told you ignorant rube".

[Lief 🗽]

The title of this thread is exactly why liberals will continue to lose Appalachia.

TNF wins the thread. As has been said before, at least the GOP pretends to care about rural whites. The Democrats approach is "STFU about guns, coal and abortion and do what you're told you ignorant rube".

If these people vote for the party that pretends to care about them but passes policies that kill them over the party that doesn't pretend to care about them but passes policies that concretely help them, then yes, they are "ignorant rubes."

[Bandit3 the Worker]

What they want is for the Democrats to embrace coal, and by extension, other major Appalachian industries (steel etc.) through protectionistic policies. Plus the whole Social Democracy thing.

The Democrats should embrace steel - by not trading with sweatshop countries. I'd like to see the state of Kentucky do more about trade.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

A little point here, a lot of people seem to be saying this type of derision is wrong and these attitudes are all because of the Democratic Party not standing up for such people. Despite that as Lief pointed out, Obamacare is exactly the sort of thing that will benefit them especially with the Medicaid expansion. Now I know some might try the typical anti-Obamacare from the left arguments and claim it doesn't help anything, so I'll ask this instead:

What if Obama had gotten single-payer passed instead? Would these people then support it?

[DC Al Fine]

What if Obama had gotten single-payer passed instead? Would these people then support it?

I'd say not immediately, but it would've done wonders for the Dems long term prospects in the region.

[Bandit3 the Worker]

Also, I have a hard time believing anyone is dumb enough to attack "the liberals" for being too generous with helping the poor, when they get food stamps and Medicaid themselves.

Most Kentuckians that I know have more sense than that.

[traininthedistance]

Opposing unregulated fossil fuel production is the right thing to do for the long-term health of both our economy and our environment, and if it loses us some votes or a couple scintillas of short-term GDP, well then that is a price I am willing to pay.  It's impossible to be all things to all people.

I am not interested in deriding these people as "ignorant rubes", because I am interested in treating everyone with respect.  But don't tell me that I need to compromise on my principles, or on the well-established scientific facts.

[DINGO Joe]

If anyone is interested, the Lexington Herald has a year long series on the 50 year decline of Eastern Kentucky.  Very long and in depth and of course very depressing.

http://www.kentucky.com/easternkentucky/


Also, this week the EIA released final coal production numbers for 2012.  Overall US coal production fell 7.2%.

East KY production fell from 67930 to 48798  -28.2% (all numbers are thousand short tons)
West KY rose slightly from 40836 to 42063    +3.0%

For the first half of 2013 WKY has slightly outproduced EKY and for the year it'll be roughly 42,000 WKY to 40,000 EKY.  By 2016 it'll be around 44,000 WKY and 25,000 EKY.

In 1988 it was 117,534 for EKY and 40,327 for WKY

BTW, the biggest increase in coal production last year?  Illinois up 28.4% to 48694 from 37700.  War on coal is really a fiendish plot to move production to IL.

[Bandit3 the Worker]

I'm sick of the Far Right complaining about the "war on coal" just to get votes. The Far Right doesn't give a damn about coal miners. If they cared about miners, they wouldn't try to bust the unions and deny them their pensions.