Opinion of Zionism

[H. Ross Peron]

FI only in the sense of advocating for a support for a Jewish nation-state.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Not a fan.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

The term has little to no actual meaning today, so neutral I guess.

[ElectionsGuy]

Not a fan.

[Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook]

Horrible.

[TDAS04]

If strictly defined as the right of Jews to have a state, then FI.

[TNF]

Horrible Ideology.

[PPT Spiral]

FI in theory, but the track record so far hasn't been awfully impressive.

[Vosem]

Proud to consider myself an adherent.

[BradyNH]

I see where it comes from, and of course the Jewish people do deserve to have a state, but its execution has been terrible.

[Horus]

Started off as a FI but now extremely problematic and different from its former meaning, so HI.

[bedstuy]

Nationalism is not a priori supportable.  We don't necessarily need to have one nation for Poles, one nation for Jews, one nation for Irish, etc.  That type of 19th century notion seems pretty silly in retrospect.   But, we only put Jewish nationalism through that sort of scrutiny.  Nobody asks whether Danes deserve a state or whether the US should give back its territory to Native Americans.

In light of that fact and the unrelenting oppression of Jews, it's reasonable to have a Jewish state in the homeland of the Jewish people.  So, I voted FI and consider myself a Zionist. 

[PJ]

Started off as a FI but now extremely problematic and different from its former meaning, so HI.

[Horus]

Nationalism is not a priori supportable.  We don't necessarily need to have one nation for Poles, one nation for Jews, one nation for Irish, etc.  That type of 19th century notion seems pretty silly in retrospect.   But, we only put Jewish nationalism through that sort of scrutiny.  Nobody asks whether Danes deserve a state or whether the US should give back its territory to Native Americans.

In light of that fact and the unrelenting oppression of Jews, it's reasonable to have a Jewish state in the homeland of the Jewish people.  So, I voted FI and consider myself a Zionist.  

But we Jews are a religion, the Danish are a nation. There are more Sikhs in this world than Jews yet I see no one calling for a Sikh homeland. Also, there is no unrelenting oppression of Jews. Jews in this country and most others tend to have higher income, education etc. than the average person in that country. Anti-Semitism OUTSIDE of Islam is confined to what few followers LaRouche has left, and neo-Nazis.

[bedstuy]

But we Jews are a religion, the Danish are a nation.

Jews are a group of people, with religious, ethnic and national ties.  Being Jewish is not only about religion.  That's just false.

There are more Sikhs in this world than Jews yet I see no one calling for a Sikh homeland.

Totally wrong.  Tell it to Indira Gandhi. 

Also, there is no unrelenting oppression of Jews. Jews in this country and most others tend to have higher income, education etc. than the average person in that country.

To the extent that's true, it because of resettlement of Jews into the Americas, Western Europe and Israel, and out of Arab countries and eastern Europe.  To the extent that Jews have a good life, it's not a reason to punish them or demand that they give up their homeland.

Anti-Semitism OUTSIDE of Islam is confined to what few followers LaRouche has left, and neo-Nazis.

America is largely not anti-Semitic, I agree with that.  Around the world, anti-Semitism is extremely common, if not evident because Jews tend to live in tolerant, first-world countries. 

[Horus]

But we Jews are a religion, the Danish are a nation.

Jews are a group of people, with religious, ethnic and national ties.  Being Jewish is not only about religion.  That's just false.

There are more Sikhs in this world than Jews yet I see no one calling for a Sikh homeland.

Totally wrong.  Tell it to Indira Gandhi.  

Also, there is no unrelenting oppression of Jews. Jews in this country and most others tend to have higher income, education etc. than the average person in that country.

To the extent that's true, it because of resettlement of Jews into the Americas, Western Europe and Israel, and out of Arab countries and eastern Europe.  To the extent that Jews have a good life, it's not a reason to punish them or demand that they give up their homeland.

Anti-Semitism OUTSIDE of Islam is confined to what few followers LaRouche has left, and neo-Nazis.

America is largely not anti-Semitic, I agree with that.  Around the world, anti-Semitism is extremely common, if not evident because Jews tend to live in tolerant, first-world countries.  

I'll give you the point about Sikhs, but you are incorrect everywhere else. There are no national loyalties to Judaism. You seem to be implying that one cannot be a Jew without having loyalty to Israel, that is hogwash. If Jews were a people like the Danish, they would all have similar physical features. Ethiopian Jews and Russian Jews look nothing alike, just as Brazilian and South Korean Christians look nothing alike. Secondly, I'm not demanding anyone give up their homeland, there is no way to remove Israel at this point. Zionism has been corrupted by some who believe it gives Israelis a right to settle wherever they'd like, that's what must stop. Thirdly, no one is trying to "punish the Jews". Many Zionists make the mistake of thinking opposition to Israel is anti-Semitism, when that could not be further from the case.

[dead0man]

Dude, there is plenty of local (ie, non-Muslim) antisemitism in Europe.  Especially the further east and south you go.

[Velasco]

In light of that fact and the unrelenting oppression of Jews, it's reasonable to have a Jewish state in the homeland of the Jewish people.  So, I voted FI and consider myself a Zionist.  

I'm quite sympathetic towards peoples suffering unrelenting oppression, and Jews are not an exception. However, what happens when some people relentlessly oppressed in other places settle in what long time ago was their homeland and turn into the oppressors of other people whom consider in justice that such place is their homeland because their ancestors were living there for centuries? ...  

What kind of Zionism are you judging here? Liberal? Labor? Revisionist? Religious? Post-Zionism?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Like every nationalism, it has a bright and a dark side.

[Lambsbread]

Not a fan.

[traininthedistance]

Nationalism is not a priori supportable.  We don't necessarily need to have one nation for Poles, one nation for Jews, one nation for Irish, etc.  That type of 19th century notion seems pretty silly in retrospect.   But, we only put Jewish nationalism through that sort of scrutiny.  Nobody asks whether Danes deserve a state or whether the US should give back its territory to Native Americans.

In light of that fact and the unrelenting oppression of Jews, it's reasonable to have a Jewish state in the homeland of the Jewish people.  So, I voted FI and consider myself a Zionist. 

This, exactly this.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

One of the only types of nationalism to be actually interesting (nationalism is, in general, the most boring of ideologies). Partly because at least forty per cent of the point has always been to deliver a big F[inks]CK YOU to all historic oppressors. Which, in turn, is directly responsible for its most attractive and least attractive features.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I'll give you the point about Sikhs, but you are incorrect everywhere else. There are no national loyalties to Judaism. You seem to be implying that one cannot be a Jew without having loyalty to Israel, that is hogwash. If Jews were a people like the Danish, they would all have similar physical features. Ethiopian Jews and Russian Jews look nothing alike, just as Brazilian and South Korean Christians look nothing alike.

Brazilians don't all look the same either. That doesn't mean they can't have a national identity. 

[bedstuy]

I'll give you the point about Sikhs, but you are incorrect everywhere else. There are no national loyalties to Judaism. You seem to be implying that one cannot be a Jew without having loyalty to Israel, that is hogwash. If Jews were a people like the Danish, they would all have similar physical features. Ethiopian Jews and Russian Jews look nothing alike, just as Brazilian and South Korean Christians look nothing alike. Secondly, I'm not demanding anyone give up their homeland, there is no way to remove Israel at this point. Zionism has been corrupted by some who believe it gives Israelis a right to settle wherever they'd like, that's what must stop. Thirdly, no one is trying to "punish the Jews". Many Zionists make the mistake of thinking opposition to Israel is anti-Semitism, when that could not be further from the case.

You misunderstand me.  I mean there are different types of Jewish identity.  Sephardic, Ashkenazi and Mizrahi ethnically, Hasidic, Orthodox and Reform, religiously, Israeli, nationally and a general common culture and history going back to Israel. 

I also question your race-based nationalist premise.  Why is a nation more legitimate if it's all blond people with fair skin or all black Africans versus a group of different races?  That's ridiculous.  If a group of people wants to be a nation and feels kinship, who are you to deny them the exalted status of people with similar shaped noses and skin tone?  Nationalism and identity are social constructs after all. 

In light of that fact and the unrelenting oppression of Jews, it's reasonable to have a Jewish state in the homeland of the Jewish people.  So, I voted FI and consider myself a Zionist. 

I'm quite sympathetic towards peoples suffering unrelenting oppression, and Jews are not an exception. However, what happens when some people relentlessly oppressed in other places settle in what long time ago was their homeland and turn into the oppressors of other people whom consider in justice that such place is their homeland because their ancestors were living there for centuries? ... 

What kind of Zionism are you judging here? Liberal? Labor? Revisionist? Religious? Post-Zionism?

Israel was not "once" the homeland of the Jewish people.  It has been continuously for thousands of years.  It is also the homeland of other groups of people.  That's a matter of record. 

And when it comes to my version of zionism.  I just mean what I said.  I don't believe in a priori nation-states or Gods,  I just believe in the right of Israel to be treated as a legitimate nation and with the same respect as any other.

[Velasco]

You don't need to declare yourself Zionist/Israeli nationalist to declare that Israel deserves to be treated as the other states. I'm not a nationalist in my own country, but I don't like when others attack my nation. Furthermore, the state of Israel deserves to be treated like the rest of nations what concerns the fulfillment of international resolutions, which systematically has broken along its existence as nation/state. Does the Zionist condition imply the acceptance of the actions of any Israeli government, including occupation and settlements? In that case, a Zionist goes some steps further than the simple defense the Israel's right to exist.

Unfortunately, the land that occupies nowadays the State of Israel hasn't been always the home of Jewish people, which suffered the so-called diaspora. Jews have been an exiguous minority in the land of Palestine for many centuries. Certainly, things were different after the establishment of the Israeli state. The problem, of course, is that they share this land with the descendants of the population who was majority previously (and nowadays 4th class citizens within Israel's recognized boundaries) and the latter continue prevailing in the occupied territory of the West Bank and in the so-called Gaza Strip.