The Fair Wage and Community Revitalization Act (reintroduced)

[WMS]

Ack! We have a vote already? I've got some questions, actually.

No, we have a vote on Sam Spade's proposed amendment to strike Section 1.

Which, as it seriously impacts the overall bill, is just as important.

Well, yes.

I'm not voting until I get a few answers to my questions from both sides, since while I want to increase the minimum wage I also don't want to hurt small businesses...

[Nym90]

Ack! We have a vote already? I've got some questions, actually.

1. To those who argue against increasing it: are you saying that we never need to increase the minimum wage? Or is this a matter of degree rather than in kind? Because inflation does eat away at people's earning power over time, and if you perpetually keep the minimum wage stagnant you will lower its buying potential over time.

2. To those who argue in favor of it: is this the right amount? How will small businesses really be affected by it?

3. To all: would a compromise wherein small businesses receive a tax credit for the extra amount they have to pay in wages due to a minimum wage increase be fair, or a good idea overall, or affordable?

-WMS (currently in Abstain mode)

As I'm in favor, I'll tackle 2 and 3.

For question 2, regarding whether it's the right amount, certainly that can be debated. It'd be brought up to about the level, accounting for inflation, that it was during the 1960's. It didn't seem to be overly destructive or burdensome to business at that point in time.

But certainly one could argue with the amount one way or another; however, remember that it would go up gradually over 4 years, rather than be an immediate increase. So businesses would have an adjustment period to get used to it. If the effects are disastorous after the first year or two, it could be repealed.

And, remember, as I've said before, that sections 2 and 3 help businesses, both large and small, and the overall positive impact, I think, would more than make up for any negative effects of section 1.

Regarding question 3, that definitely seems like something that I could support. Obviously the cost of it is something that would have to be looked at (you are shifting the burden of the extra pay from the businesses to the government; the money still has to come from somewhere), but assuming that the government can afford it, and the positive impact of the additional wages would more than offset the expense (which I personally think they would) I'd support it.

[WMS]

Ack! We have a vote already? I've got some questions, actually.

1. To those who argue against increasing it: are you saying that we never need to increase the minimum wage? Or is this a matter of degree rather than in kind? Because inflation does eat away at people's earning power over time, and if you perpetually keep the minimum wage stagnant you will lower its buying potential over time.

2. To those who argue in favor of it: is this the right amount? How will small businesses really be affected by it?

3. To all: would a compromise wherein small businesses receive a tax credit for the extra amount they have to pay in wages due to a minimum wage increase be fair, or a good idea overall, or affordable?

-WMS (currently in Abstain mode)

As I'm in favor, I'll tackle 2 and 3.

For question 2, regarding whether it's the right amount, certainly that can be debated. It'd be brought up to about the level, accounting for inflation, that it was during the 1960's. It didn't seem to be overly destructive or burdensome to business at that point in time.

But certainly one could argue with the amount one way or another; however, remember that it would go up gradually over 4 years, rather than be an immediate increase. So businesses would have an adjustment period to get used to it. If the effects are disastorous after the first year or two, it could be repealed.

And, remember, as I've said before, that sections 2 and 3 help businesses, both large and small, and the overall positive impact, I think, would more than make up for any negative effects of section 1.

Regarding question 3, that definitely seems like something that I could support. Obviously the cost of it is something that would have to be looked at (you are shifting the burden of the extra pay from the businesses to the government; the money still has to come from somewhere), but assuming that the government can afford it, and the positive impact of the additional wages would more than offset the expense (which I personally think they would) I'd support it.

Thank you for your response. Now I await the other side.

[Sam Spade]

Ack! We have a vote already? I've got some questions, actually.

1. To those who argue against increasing it: are you saying that we never need to increase the minimum wage? Or is this a matter of degree rather than in kind? Because inflation does eat away at people's earning power over time, and if you perpetually keep the minimum wage stagnant you will lower its buying potential over time.

2. To those who argue in favor of it: is this the right amount? How will small businesses really be affected by it?

3. To all: would a compromise wherein small businesses receive a tax credit for the extra amount they have to pay in wages due to a minimum wage increase be fair, or a good idea overall, or affordable?

-WMS (currently in Abstain mode)

I've worked in small businesses for a long while. 

Minimum wage increases always hurt small businesses by causing them to have to lay off workers in order to meet those pay requirements.  They also drive up the costs for products and esp. services for normal people. 

Take restaurants for example, one of the reasons why restaurants are such a bargain in the US is because service costs are so low because of minimum wage issues.  If we raise minimum wages now, it will cause your costs in restaurants to go up as well.

I am not saying that I think that the minimum wage should never be raised.  But considering what John Ford has told us about the precarious nature of the economy right now, raising the minimum wage might send us into recession by making small businesses lay off workers in order to meet cash flow estimates.

Small businesses, regardless of what many here would tell you, employ most of the people employed in the US and create most of the new jobs in this country.  If we restrict their ability to create new jobs, we restrict the freedom of individuals as a whole and jeopardize our economic well-being.

John Dibble and Gabu have quoted these two articles earlier.  I suggest that you read them also. 

http://www.freedomworks.org/informed/issues_template.php?issue_id=1163

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Labor/tst042904a.cfm

I have no problems with Clauses 2 and 3.  My problem is with Clause 1, which is the reason why I'm requesting the amendment.

[WMS]

Ack! We have a vote already? I've got some questions, actually.

1. To those who argue against increasing it: are you saying that we never need to increase the minimum wage? Or is this a matter of degree rather than in kind? Because inflation does eat away at people's earning power over time, and if you perpetually keep the minimum wage stagnant you will lower its buying potential over time.

2. To those who argue in favor of it: is this the right amount? How will small businesses really be affected by it?

3. To all: would a compromise wherein small businesses receive a tax credit for the extra amount they have to pay in wages due to a minimum wage increase be fair, or a good idea overall, or affordable?

-WMS (currently in Abstain mode)

I've worked in small businesses for a long while. 

Minimum wage increases always hurt small businesses by causing them to have to lay off workers in order to meet those pay requirements.  They also drive up the costs for products and esp. services for normal people. 

Take restaurants for example, one of the reasons why restaurants are such a bargain in the US is because service costs are so low because of minimum wage issues.  If we raise minimum wages now, it will cause your costs in restaurants to go up as well.

I am not saying that I think that the minimum wage should never be raised.  But considering what John Ford has told us about the precarious nature of the economy right now, raising the minimum wage might send us into recession by making small businesses lay off workers in order to meet cash flow estimates.

Small businesses, regardless of what many here would tell you, employ most of the people employed in the US and create most of the new jobs in this country.  If we restrict their ability to create new jobs, we restrict the freedom of individuals as a whole and jeopardize our economic well-being.

John Dibble and Gabu have quoted these two articles earlier.  I suggest that you read them also. 

http://www.freedomworks.org/informed/issues_template.php?issue_id=1163

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Labor/tst042904a.cfm

I have no problems with Clauses 2 and 3.  My problem is with Clause 1, which is the reason why I'm requesting the amendment.

I read both of those articles, which is why I'm in Abstain mode. I note that both of those articles make it sound like the minimum wage should never be raised...

Could you answer my third question, since I'm not sure what you think of that proposal?

[Sam Spade]

Could you answer my third question, since I'm not sure what you think of that proposal?

Considering that our deficit is already over $500 billion and I really don't like the government giving money directly to businesses, especially since I don't know how we would make this program not become some type of corporate welfare.   I would probably be in opposition of that, WMS, honestly.

Let me clarify that:
Maybe, and only maybe, if this funding were cut out over a certain period of time, like 5 years for example might I support it.  I'd definitely give that some thought.

[Colin]

Although the Renaissance Zone idea would probably be a good idea to help improve stuggling areas an increase in the minimum wage of $2 would be very detrimental to the Atlasian economy. The economy is already very weak and it's recovery is very tentative at this moment and an increase of the minimum wage would serve to hamper economic growth. For this reason I will not support this bill. If Section 1 was not included I would be rather undecided on this bill. Section one though makes this bill completely unacceptable to me.

[WMS]

Could you answer my third question, since I'm not sure what you think of that proposal?

Considering that our deficit is already over $500 billion and I really don't like the government giving money directly to businesses, especially since I don't know how we would make this program not become some type of corporate welfare.   I would probably be in opposition of that, WMS, honestly.

Let me clarify that:
Maybe, and only maybe, if this funding were cut out over a certain period of time, like 5 years for example might I support it.  I'd definitely give that some thought.

Well, tax credits are used all the time, so I figured it might be a good compromise. I wonder if the Treasury Secretary - or the GM - has a good idea how it would impact the budget?

And I'm trying to get a lock on when minimum wage increases are good and when they are not. [OOC: I would like to note that the refusal to raise the minimum wage from 1995 to 2000 was based on ideology, not economics, because the economy was strong but, after the 1995 Congress voted for that increase - a lot of Republicans defied their party leadership on that one - the Republican leadership refused to allow any floor votes on minimum wage increases, because they would likely lose them.

And also: it has been TEN years since the last increase - that's quite a while, don't you think? The thing keeping me from backing the wage increase is that I'm not certain how much damage it would do to small businesses. It does need to go up at some point just to account for the eroding power of inflation, but I want to know when to do it and by how much before I cast a vote. I understand that's a complex answer, but I'm trying to get past ideology. ]

[Sam Spade]

Could you answer my third question, since I'm not sure what you think of that proposal?

Considering that our deficit is already over $500 billion and I really don't like the government giving money directly to businesses, especially since I don't know how we would make this program not become some type of corporate welfare.   I would probably be in opposition of that, WMS, honestly.

Let me clarify that:
Maybe, and only maybe, if this funding were cut out over a certain period of time, like 5 years for example might I support it.  I'd definitely give that some thought.

Well, tax credits are used all the time, so I figured it might be a good compromise. I wonder if the Treasury Secretary - or the GM - has a good idea how it would impact the budget?

And I'm trying to get a lock on when minimum wage increases are good and when they are not. [OOC: I would like to note that the refusal to raise the minimum wage from 1995 to 2000 was based on ideology, not economics, because the economy was strong but, after the 1995 Congress voted for that increase - a lot of Republicans defied their party leadership on that one - the Republican leadership refused to allow any floor votes on minimum wage increases, because they would likely lose them.

And also: it has been TEN years since the last increase - that's quite a while, don't you think? The thing keeping me from backing the wage increase is that I'm not certain how much damage it would do to small businesses. It does need to go up at some point just to account for the eroding power of inflation, but I want to know when to do it and by how much before I cast a vote. I understand that's a complex answer, but I'm trying to get past ideology. ]

Well, I don't think we're at a point where we need to raise the minimum wage.  The economy is weak, as John Ford has said, and businessmen are nervous after the election fiasco of the last weekend.  Raising the minimum wage right now could push this teetering economy over the edge, imo.

So I guess those are my reasons above for requesting this amendment and I'm sticking to them. 

[WMS]

Could you answer my third question, since I'm not sure what you think of that proposal?

Considering that our deficit is already over $500 billion and I really don't like the government giving money directly to businesses, especially since I don't know how we would make this program not become some type of corporate welfare.   I would probably be in opposition of that, WMS, honestly.

Let me clarify that:
Maybe, and only maybe, if this funding were cut out over a certain period of time, like 5 years for example might I support it.  I'd definitely give that some thought.

Well, tax credits are used all the time, so I figured it might be a good compromise. I wonder if the Treasury Secretary - or the GM - has a good idea how it would impact the budget?

And I'm trying to get a lock on when minimum wage increases are good and when they are not. [OOC: I would like to note that the refusal to raise the minimum wage from 1995 to 2000 was based on ideology, not economics, because the economy was strong but, after the 1995 Congress voted for that increase - a lot of Republicans defied their party leadership on that one - the Republican leadership refused to allow any floor votes on minimum wage increases, because they would likely lose them.

And also: it has been TEN years since the last increase - that's quite a while, don't you think? The thing keeping me from backing the wage increase is that I'm not certain how much damage it would do to small businesses. It does need to go up at some point just to account for the eroding power of inflation, but I want to know when to do it and by how much before I cast a vote. I understand that's a complex answer, but I'm trying to get past ideology. ]

Well, I don't think we're at a point where we need to raise the minimum wage.  The economy is weak, as John Ford has said, and businessmen are nervous after the election fiasco of the last weekend.  Raising the minimum wage right now could push this teetering economy over the edge, imo.

So I guess those are my reasons above for requesting this amendment and I'm sticking to them. 

Okay then, thanks for your time as well. I haven't made up my mind, for the record, but am a de facto Abstain at the moment.

[Platypus]

I have no problem with raising the mimimum wage, in fact I encourage it; but I would much rather wait until after we work out the taxation plan, including for small businesses. If we can provide small businesses with a tax cut to offset the wage increase, then that is the best possible solution-more money in the worker's pockets without the businesses suffering.

Also, how can we ensure that big business won't just ship in, and 4 years 364 days later move to another Rennaisance Zone? The theory is good, but it's open to abuse. How to close it, I don't know, but at this stage I am leaning against supporting this bill.

Ideals are important, but the most important thing is good governance.

[Sam Spade]

I have no problem with raising the mimimum wage, in fact I encourage it; but I would much rather wait until after we work out the taxation plan, including for small businesses. If we can provide small businesses with a tax cut to offset the wage increase, then that is the best possible solution-more money in the worker's pockets without the businesses suffering.

Also, how can we ensure that big business won't just ship in, and 4 years 364 days later move to another Rennaisance Zone? The theory is good, but it's open to abuse. How to close it, I don't know, but at this stage I am leaning against supporting this bill.

Ideals are important, but the most important thing is good governance.

I will be willing to listen to what you would do with regards to your tax plan and this endeavor.

In fact, I think the two most important things facing the Senate right now are election and voting reform and developing an Atlasian federal budget and consequent tax system in the next 3-4 weeks.

For that reason, I have postponed my bringing up my larger initiatives that I talked about in my campaign and am just proposing ideas that I think people will easily support without much concern.  Also, I will not propose any more simple acts until we get through these two things above.

Also, I'd like to finish up some legislation that was left over from last term, like Siege's Act and John Ford's two things, which I think are good endeavors.

[Nym90]

I have no problem with raising the mimimum wage, in fact I encourage it; but I would much rather wait until after we work out the taxation plan, including for small businesses. If we can provide small businesses with a tax cut to offset the wage increase, then that is the best possible solution-more money in the worker's pockets without the businesses suffering.

Also, how can we ensure that big business won't just ship in, and 4 years 364 days later move to another Rennaisance Zone? The theory is good, but it's open to abuse. How to close it, I don't know, but at this stage I am leaning against supporting this bill.

Ideals are important, but the most important thing is good governance.

Regarding the renaissance zones, yes, there is that possibility, but there are large costs assosciated with moving a business, and this hasn't really been a problem in places where the zones are used. The zones help to improve the economy of the area and even if they aren't taxed, businesses will need to show that there is a profit to be made in the area.

And even if the business did move after 5 years, the area is still better off than they would have been if they had never come in at all.

[Colin]

I have no problem with raising the mimimum wage, in fact I encourage it; but I would much rather wait until after we work out the taxation plan, including for small businesses. If we can provide small businesses with a tax cut to offset the wage increase, then that is the best possible solution-more money in the worker's pockets without the businesses suffering.

Also, how can we ensure that big business won't just ship in, and 4 years 364 days later move to another Rennaisance Zone? The theory is good, but it's open to abuse. How to close it, I don't know, but at this stage I am leaning against supporting this bill.

Ideals are important, but the most important thing is good governance.

I have to agree with Hugh that their is always the possibility of businesses hoping around from Rennaisance Zone to Rennaisance Zone to find a way to reduce expeditures and tax. I also must agree with my esteemed collegues that we should put off this type of legislation until we have a new working tax plan and we get voter and election reforms in place. Again I see no reason why I should support this bill.

[12th Doctor]

I agree with clauses 2 & 3, but not one.  Minimum Wage increases only spur on inflation and higher prices.

[Sam Spade]

I agree with clauses 2 & 3, but not one.  Minimum Wage increases only spur on inflation and higher prices.

Then you should vote for my amendment. 

[12th Doctor]

I vote yea on Senator Spade's ammendment.

[Platypus]

I vote nay on Senator SamSpade's amendment. It's an important part of the bill, but I would ask that the debate on this bill be heldoff, and after the vote for the amendment, for tht vote to be enacted.

[Gabu]

I'm sorta teetering back and forth, but based on the large number of conflicting accounts that I've heard regarding the minimum wage, and given that I like the rest of this bill, I vote yea on the amendment.

[Nym90]

I agree with clauses 2 & 3, but not one. Minimum Wage increases only spur on inflation and higher prices.

Except that inflation occurs anyway, and thus not increasing the minimum wage will result in it going down in purchasing power. Passage of this bill would only bring it back to where it once was; I assume from your statements that you would never support a minimum wage increase? You seem to object to it in principle, not to the size.

[Colin]

I vote aye on SamSpade's amendment.

[12th Doctor]

I agree with clauses 2 & 3, but not one. Minimum Wage increases only spur on inflation and higher prices.

Except that inflation occurs anyway, and thus not increasing the minimum wage will result in it going down in purchasing power. Passage of this bill would only bring it back to where it once was; I assume from your statements that you would never support a minimum wage increase? You seem to object to it in principle, not to the size.

But it will occure much more rapidly if you increase the wage.

[Reaganfan]

Aye

[Nym90]

Nay

[MAS117]

Aye, and I propose my own amendment:

Clause 1
The federal minimum wage of Atlasia shall be increased by 50 cents per hour each year for the next 4 years, until it reaches the level of $6.75/hour.