Feminism on Atlas Forum

[Frodo]

apparently this word is verbotten on this forum, and so has been caricatured to death, so i'll just post the definition of it here, and ask what part of it do you happen to disagree with, because i can't:

Feminism

n 1: a doctrine that advocates equal rights for women; 2: the movement aimed at equal rights for women [syn: feminist movement, women's liberation movement, women's lib]

Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=feminism

and a more extensive version:

Feminism is a social theory and political movement primarily informed and motivated by the experience of women. While generally providing a critique of social relations, many proponents of feminism also focus on analyzing gender inequality and the promotion of women's rights, interests, and issues.

Feminist theory aims to understand the nature of inequality and focuses on gender politics, power relations and sexuality. Feminist political activism campaigns on issues such as reproductive rights, domestic violence, maternity leave, equal pay, sexual harassment, discrimination and sexual violence. Themes explored in feminism include discrimination, stereotyping, objectification (especially sexual objectification), oppression and patriarchy.

The basis of feminist ideology is that rights, privilege, status and obligations should not be determined by gender.

Modern feminist theory has been extensively criticized as being predominantly, but not exclusively, associated with western middle class academia. Feminist activism, however, is a grass roots movement which crosses class and race boundaries. It is culturally specific and addresses the issues relevant to the women of that society, for example female circumcision in Sudan, or the glass ceiling in developed economies. Some issues, such as rape, incest, mothering, are universal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism

feminism, simply put, is not about hating men, but about achieving equal rights for women -do any of you happen not to advocate that women be treated as equals in our society? 

[Gabu]

feminism, simply put, is not about hating men, but about achieving equal rights for women -do any of you happen not to advocate that women be treated as equals in our society? 

I don't disagree with any parts of feminism, but I do strongly disagree with what some who call themselves feminists want to do.

[Frodo]

feminism, simply put, is not about hating men, but about achieving equal rights for women -do any of you happen not to advocate that women be treated as equals in our society? 

I don't disagree with any parts of feminism, but I do strongly disagree with what some who call themselves feminists want to do.

what are some of the things that they want to do?  for the record, can you lay it out on the table?  and i would prefer these ideas you mention to be substantiated -i am sick to death with the rightwing caricature that makes feminism into this man-hating movement that seeks to figuratively castrate all men, and make them ashamed to be men, by taking what a few feminists have said, and blowing them out of proportion.  it is appalling to see so many men even on the left have adopted and internalized this view, if this forum is of any indication. 

[Alcon]

What many describe as feministic is not feminism but fundamentally against the ideals of the movement. To me, feminism should be, definitionally, the belief in overall equality between the two sexes, excluding obvious biological factors (admitting that men are better at manual labor is not anti-feminist to me).

So-called "radical feminism" is not feminism any more than setting something on fire is "radical warming." "Radical feminism" is sexism. Sure, it is slightly non-standard sexism, but it is still sexism and does not deserve to be lumped in with a completely honorable movement of seeking equality between the genders.

[dazzleman]

Frodo, you are very unrealistic about the true goals of modern-day feminists.

Feminists have used the whole equality issue to effectively disarm their opposition for a very long time.  Maybe they did really favor equality between the sexes at one time.  But that day has long past.

Feminism today is dominated by a resentment toward men, a belief that men are responsible for all of the world's problems, that men are toxic predators, and that every means should be used to institutionalize discrimination against men.

The reality is that men and women can never be truly equal.  They can and should be equivalent, with offsetting assymetries to account for the physical and biological differences betweent them.  Women and men have different bodies, different biological and societal functions, and think quite differently.  This is the way it should be, and it cannot be changed.

Feminists first devalued the traditional female role, arguing essentially that it be abandoned, with no replacement.  Of course, that hasn't worked out well, as women find themselves overstressed and overwhelmed.  And who is to blame for that?  You guessed it - men.  Feminists have asserted absolute supremacy for women over childbearing decisions, custody in divorce cases, etc., but are bitter and angry that more men feel less responsibility for footing the bill for decisions in which they are not allowed to participate.

I could go on and on.  I will just say that you should not accept a politically correct definition of feminism at face value.  Most of the bad things that are said about feminists are true in my experience.

[KEmperor]

The dictionary defintion is just fine.  The actual ideology of modern day "feminists" is far from it.

[angus]

Feminism

n 1: a doctrine that advocates equal rights for women; 2: the movement aimed at equal rights for women [syn: feminist movement, women's liberation movement, women's lib]

Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University
 

And since you read it on the internet it's gotta be true! 

I'll quote Tom Hanks from Sleepless in Seattle:  "I'm not going to think about what they're not[/b] teaching you in school"


These are your future government leaders, ladies and gentlemen.  Read and weep.

[Cashcow]

feminism, simply put, is not about hating men, but about achieving equal rights for women -do any of you happen not to advocate that women be treated as equals in our society? 

I don't disagree with any parts of feminism, but I do strongly disagree with what some who call themselves feminists want to do.

Exactly.

[The Dowager Mod]

Yes i am evil i think women should be paid the same for equal work.

[opebo]

Yes i am evil i think women should be paid the same for equal work.

Sounds very fair.  I'm sympathetic to this feminist goal, and to feminism in general, but I prefer a more laissez-faire attitude to private interactions between the sexes.  For example, would you be for legalizing prostitution?

[John Dibble]

Yes i am evil i think women should be paid the same for equal work.

That's not evil at all - I think the same way. However, in some professions women and men aren't able to do the same amount of work, or at the same level or quality. I don't think people should be paid equally unless their labor is truly equally valuable, regardless of sex.

[The Dowager Mod]

Yes i am evil i think women should be paid the same for equal work.

Sounds very fair.  I'm sympathetic to this feminist goal, and to feminism in general, but I prefer a more laissez-faire attitude to private interactions between the sexes.  For example, would you be for legalizing prostitution?

no

[Cashcow]

Yes i am evil i think women should be paid the same for equal work.

Sounds very fair.  I'm sympathetic to this feminist goal, and to feminism in general, but I prefer a more laissez-faire attitude to private interactions between the sexes.  For example, would you be for legalizing prostitution?

no

Why not?

[The Dowager Mod]

Yes i am evil i think women should be paid the same for equal work.

Sounds very fair.  I'm sympathetic to this feminist goal, and to feminism in general, but I prefer a more laissez-faire attitude to private interactions between the sexes.  For example, would you be for legalizing prostitution?

no

Why not?

If it is heavily regulated like nevada i don't have much of a problem with it.

[Joe Republic]

I'm not going to weigh too heavily into this debate, but what bugs me most of all is the way men are portrayed on television.  Particularly during ads.

Whenever they show some kind of everyday situation involving a couple, the guy is almost ALWAYS depicted as a bumbling sex-crazed idiot, while the woman is a saint.  I dare somebody to tell me they haven't spotted it either.

OK, you may continue.

[Hitchabrut]

Most women against prostituion are because they consider it demeaning oward women and makes them into objects, but not for moral reasons.

[dazzleman]

I'm not going to weigh too heavily into this debate, but what bugs me most of all is the way men are portrayed on television.  Particularly during ads.

Whenever they show some kind of everyday situation involving a couple, the guy is almost ALWAYS depicted as a bumbling sex-crazed idiot, while the woman is a saint.  I dare somebody to tell me they haven't spotted it either.

OK, you may continue.

I see it all the time.  TV would never dare to portray women in this manner, but men are fair game.  Fathers in particular are portrayed as having a lower place in the family than either the wife or the kids.

[Frodo]

Frodo, you are very unrealistic about the true goals of modern-day feminists.

Feminists have used the whole equality issue to effectively disarm their opposition for a very long time.  Maybe they did really favor equality between the sexes at one time.  But that day has long past.

Feminism today is dominated by a resentment toward men, a belief that men are responsible for all of the world's problems, that men are toxic predators, and that every means should be used to institutionalize discrimination against men.

The reality is that men and women can never be truly equal.  They can and should be equivalent, with offsetting assymetries to account for the physical and biological differences betweent them.  Women and men have different bodies, different biological and societal functions, and think quite differently.  This is the way it should be, and it cannot be changed.

Feminists first devalued the traditional female role, arguing essentially that it be abandoned, with no replacement.  Of course, that hasn't worked out well, as women find themselves overstressed and overwhelmed.  And who is to blame for that?  You guessed it - men.  Feminists have asserted absolute supremacy for women over childbearing decisions, custody in divorce cases, etc., but are bitter and angry that more men feel less responsibility for footing the bill for decisions in which they are not allowed to participate.

I could go on and on.  I will just say that you should not accept a politically correct definition of feminism at face value.  Most of the bad things that are said about feminists are true in my experience.

can you substantiate any of this?  can you point to any feminists that have any of the positions that you allege they have?  i am tired of people making unsubstantiated slurs on a certain movement that promptly take on a life of their own.  please, back it up. i sure as hell am not about to accept your words at face value.    

[dazzleman]

The evidence is all around you if you only open your eyes.  I don't think anything I could say to back up my opinion of feminism would convince you.  You are determined to accept the feminists at face value, in spite of all evidence to the contrary.

I'll discuss it more tomorrow.

[Hatman 🍁]

The evidence is all around you if you only open your eyes.  I don't think anything I could say to back up my opinion of feminism would convince you.  You are determined to accept the feminists at face value, in spite of all evidence to the contrary.

I'll discuss it more tomorrow.

What are you talking about? 99% of feminists are not the types you hear about in the media who are man hating hairy lesbians. I'm in a woman's studies class most of the class are feminists, but I have not run into a single one of them who have said anything bad about men, or were rude to me or anything.  It is all about eqaulity- as long as equality does not mean the "same".

[A18]

Most feminists have no support for natural rights.

Women are already paid the same as men for the same work.

[Frodo]

Most feminists have no support for natural rights.

care to elaborate on this concept of 'natural rights'?

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not true.  women have always been paid less than men, and the most recent figure i am familiar with is that they are paid about $0.75 to every dollar the man earns...though the gap has been closing -at least in the United States. 

[A18]

Such as my natural right to hire who I want, pay what I want, etc.

They are paid the same for the same work. Obviously men make more than women.

[nclib]

I don't think people should be paid equally unless their labor is truly equally valuable, regardless of sex.

Different professions need to be evaluated to make sure they are paid comparably to what they are worth.

Too many female-dominated professions tend to over underpaid, even if the work is of a high value (i.e. early childhood education).

[The Dowager Mod]

Too many female-dominated professions tend to over underpaid, even if the work is of a high value (i.e. early childhood education).
Amen bro.