SENATE BILL: Fair Labor Standards Act of 2013 (Redraft at Vote)

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

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Sponsor: TNF

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The sponsor has 24 hours of course to start advocacy here.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I am shocked, shocked that Saturday morning is a period of light activity.

[TNF]

I am shocked, shocked that Saturday morning is a period of light activity.

I apologize, I'll get to this as soon as I finish taking some tests for teacher certification.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

While most likely annoying, at least that is more productive than sleeping off the hangovers attained on Friday like most are probably doing right now, which is in turn probably more productive then what I am doing/going to be doing at present/soon.

[Maxwell]

Oh lordy, my list of grievances...

While I appreciate that you are scaling the minimum wage increase, it is chronically high. Also, section 5 seems far too intimate: how is the Atlasian Federal Government going to measure productivity of individual workers? Wouldn't that just be a raise, and therefore above the minimum wage?

And the thing is, the minimum wage areas is one where I disagree the least. The Dismissal and Tenure part practically makes it so that businesses can barely control their own operation. I could never support defining pay periods to two weeks, a month is fine, and having some variation is good (I worked at places that did a month and did a week). The Unpaid Labor section would do numbers to get rid of a lot of our future high earning population, as unpaid internships are an especially good way for students to move on up in the world. The Child Labor part I may be willing to work with if you DID allow a family based exception (I personally loved selling stuff in garage sales when I was five), but most of this bill is just beyond my willingness.

[President Tyrion]

The Unpaid Labor section would do numbers to get rid of a lot of our future high earning population, as unpaid internships are an especially good way for students to move on up in the world.

Those jobs don't just go away, though. You assume that having no unpaid internships would mean that companies would shrug their shoulders and hire no one, and I'm pretty sure that just wouldn't happen.

[Maxwell]

The Unpaid Labor section would do numbers to get rid of a lot of our future high earning population, as unpaid internships are an especially good way for students to move on up in the world.

Those jobs don't just go away, though. You assume that having no unpaid internships would mean that companies would shrug their shoulders and hire no one, and I'm pretty sure that just wouldn't happen.

That assumption was not made. It would get rid of a lot of future high earners, because companies would want someone who had some qualifications if they were actually going to pay them, and as a result, those with less experience would be doing something that would be less applicable and, as a result, probably earning lower wages for a longer time. Obviously there would still be some that companies feel are more worth their time and money to get a look at, but a lot of college age people would not be getting that experience.

[TNF]

Alright, lemme get down to this. Sorry for the delay, had to get some personal life stuff done involving standardized tests and half my day.

The purpose of the Fair Labor Standards Act of 2013 is, simply put, to restore dignity or at least provide some semblance of dignity for those who work. We have had piecemeal reform thus far that I fear does not go far enough to enhance the position of Atlasian workers compared to that of bosses. I will address all questions presented in this thread, and I want to make known that I am open to compromise on this bill, so long as the intent of the bill (improving the position of Atlasian workers) is not compromised.

Oh lordy, my list of grievances...

While I appreciate that you are scaling the minimum wage increase, it is chronically high. Also, section 5 seems far too intimate: how is the Atlasian Federal Government going to measure productivity of individual workers? Wouldn't that just be a raise, and therefore above the minimum wage?

And the thing is, the minimum wage areas is one where I disagree the least. The Dismissal and Tenure part practically makes it so that businesses can barely control their own operation. I could never support defining pay periods to two weeks, a month is fine, and having some variation is good (I worked at places that did a month and did a week). The Unpaid Labor section would do numbers to get rid of a lot of our future high earning population, as unpaid internships are an especially good way for students to move on up in the world. The Child Labor part I may be willing to work with if you DID allow a family based exception (I personally loved selling stuff in garage sales when I was five), but most of this bill is just beyond my willingness.

I am willing to negotiate a lower minimum wage increase, but I would like to see the minimum wage at the very least hit $18 over some period of time. That's where I draw the line.

The Atlasian government already measures increases in worker productivity through the Bureau of Labor Statistics, requiring wage increases proportionate to the increases in productivity won't make too much of a mess in that regard because it will be an across the board increase, not an industry-by-industry increase. The point of this is to force employers to share gains in productivity with their workforce -- historically this has been done without the need for coercion, but since the inauguration of Reaganite capitalism in the 1980s, we've seen wages and productivity not move together. More and more of the income gains that have come from increased productivity have flown directly to the top. In Atlasia, of course, we have stronger unions, so some of that is going to be blunted, but we cannot hope to restore the link between wages and productivity without corrective action.

We have a fundamental and philosophical difference there I'm afraid I won't be able to paper over. I believe that a job is a right and that businesses should not be allowed to fire without a good reason.

A month is a long time to go without being paid. Requiring employers to at least pay someone every two weeks is not that radical of a demand, if you ask me.

This bill does not eliminate internships, it eliminates all internships which are not paid. As someone working for free right now (as a student teacher) I cannot begin to sympathize with the idea that unpaid internships are a 'good thing.' They are not. They encourage nothing but exploitation. Interns should be paid like everyone else.

I intend to modify the child labor section to raise, rather than lower, the age. I have come around to the opinion that no person should work under the age of eighteen, unless he or she is emancipated.

[Maxwell]

I'll be productive on this even though I am 99% sure I won't vote for it. I'll outline some things I'll plan to amendment.

First:

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You said that your lowest is $18.00, so I changed the scale so that each year it goes up a dollar.

Second:

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This is my favorite section, and am anti-child labor, and the only thing I'd change about the bill is this.

This is where I'd like to start.

[President Tyrion]

The Unpaid Labor section would do numbers to get rid of a lot of our future high earning population, as unpaid internships are an especially good way for students to move on up in the world.

Those jobs don't just go away, though. You assume that having no unpaid internships would mean that companies would shrug their shoulders and hire no one, and I'm pretty sure that just wouldn't happen.

That assumption was not made. It would get rid of a lot of future high earners, because companies would want someone who had some qualifications if they were actually going to pay them, and as a result, those with less experience would be doing something that would be less applicable and, as a result, probably earning lower wages for a longer time. Obviously there would still be some that companies feel are more worth their time and money to get a look at, but a lot of college age people would not be getting that experience.

Well, again, those jobs don't cease to exist. Let's say unpaid internships are abolished. Companies with cash flow issues, naturally, wouldn't offer the same work for pay. Down the road, they look to hire as the new batch of job applicants arrives. They have a quota. They're going to take as many people as they were going to take before. The only difference, if any, is that they have to train employees for a little longer. Businesses incur a cost, sure, but there's not much job loss.

[tmthforu94]

I have several problems with Section 7. The first is banning internships from the past (and requiring those companies to reimburse their unpaid interns), which is what Clause 1 and 2 would do. I think it's completely wrong to punish companies for doing something that was completely legal at the start of this year. Unpaid interns knew exactly what they were getting into when accepting the internship.

...Which brings me to my second main objection, which wipes out most of the section - banning unpaid internships. Don't get me wrong - unpaid internships aren't ideal. Most students get stuck doing at least one during their college career. Thankfully, though, businesses are pretty flexible with what you do during the intership, as well as what your hours are and the time frame of the internship. It provides an EXCELLENT educational opportunity for the student, as well as provides them with experience to attain paid internships later on, as well as employment.

In a perfect world, this section would be great. But this isn't a perfect world - if this were to be enacted, the number of internships in Atlasia would plummet, creating an environment where securing an internship would be based on who you know, rather than what you've done. We're sending our students into the workforce with less and less experience, making it even harder for them to secure a job. Speaking as a college student, I know I'm speaking in the best interest of students when expressing these concerns.

[TNF]

I have several problems with Section 7. The first is banning internships from the past (and requiring those companies to reimburse their unpaid interns), which is what Clause 1 and 2 would do. I think it's completely wrong to punish companies for doing something that was completely legal at the start of this year. Unpaid interns knew exactly what they were getting into when accepting the internship.

...Which brings me to my second main objection, which wipes out most of the section - banning unpaid internships. Don't get me wrong - unpaid internships aren't ideal. Most students get stuck doing at least one during their college career. Thankfully, though, businesses are pretty flexible with what you do during the intership, as well as what your hours are and the time frame of the internship. It provides an EXCELLENT educational opportunity for the student, as well as provides them with experience to attain paid internships later on, as well as employment.

In a perfect world, this section would be great. But this isn't a perfect world - if this were to be enacted, the number of internships in Atlasia would plummet, creating an environment where securing an internship would be based on who you know, rather than what you've done. We're sending our students into the workforce with less and less experience, making it even harder for them to secure a job. Speaking as a college student, I know I'm speaking in the best interest of students when expressing these concerns.

This is ridiculous. If an employer cannot pay an intern, it should not be offering internships, period. Slavery is unacceptable in the Republic of Atlasia, and that's exactly what unpaid internships are. Being forced to work long hours with no pay is slavery. Period. End of story. It disturbs me that there are so many people here willing to act as apologists for some of the worst human beings on the planet (people who force college students up to their ears in debt to work for free) and say that all of it is for 'their own good.'

What nonsense. If an employer cannot pay an intern, the employer DOES NOT NEED an intern. It's not ridiculous to assert that. Interns should not become an underclass of unpaid laborers. This is not hard. This is not controversial. All workers should be paid.

Come on, people. Educational opportunities are a great thing, and I'm all for that, so long as those opportunities are PAID. No person should be forced to work for free for any length of time.

[tmthforu94]

It isn't ridiculous, it's the reality of what your "pro-labor" reforms would actually create.

My friends, as most of you would probably agree to, an unpaid internships is most certainly not slavery. An individual makes the personal decision to accept an unpaid internship for the educational experience and employment opportunities that it will open up. As I stated, companies do not "force" unpaid interns to do anything - they have a major say in their responsibilities and control how much and when they work.

There are compromises I would be willing to make if a majority of Senators agree, such as requiring that all unpaid internships count for college credit and requiring that businesses cover transportation costs. Stripping unpaid internships puts the student at an unfair advantage, especially lower-income students, as attaining internships and employment out of college will come down to who you know rather than what you've done. Passing this would be counteractive.

I hope my fellow Senators will engage in a serious discussion over the various sections of this legislation, rather than just throw out petty insults and dismissive statements. This piece of legislation will have great effects on our economy, both good and bad, and a real discussion is needed.

[TJ in Oregon]

There are compromises I would be willing to make if a majority of Senators agree, such as requiring that all unpaid internships count for college credit and requiring that businesses cover transportation costs. Stripping unpaid internships puts the student at an unfair advantage, especially lower-income students, as attaining internships and employment out of college will come down to who you know rather than what you've done. Passing this would be counteractive.

I don't think it makes sense to require unpaid internships to count for college credit; they aren't classes and are unlikely to count as anything in particular if they were for credits. It might even end up forcing students to pay tuition for the internships. Or if we forced the companies to pay tuition for them, they might up having to pay more for the unpaid internship than they would for a paid one. It would defeat the purpose.

[TNF]

It isn't ridiculous, it's the reality of what your "pro-labor" reforms would actually create.

My friends, as most of you would probably agree to, an unpaid internships is most certainly not slavery. An individual makes the personal decision to accept an unpaid internship for the educational experience and employment opportunities that it will open up. As I stated, companies do not "force" unpaid interns to do anything - they have a major say in their responsibilities and control how much and when they work.

There are compromises I would be willing to make if a majority of Senators agree, such as requiring that all unpaid internships count for college credit and requiring that businesses cover transportation costs. Stripping unpaid internships puts the student at an unfair advantage, especially lower-income students, as attaining internships and employment out of college will come down to who you know rather than what you've done. Passing this would be counteractive.

I hope my fellow Senators will engage in a serious discussion over the various sections of this legislation, rather than just throw out petty insults and dismissive statements. This piece of legislation will have great effects on our economy, both good and bad, and a real discussion is needed.

If a slave chooses to be a slave, is he not a slave? Unpaid internships are rarely taken willingly. They are taking because (a) an institution requires them for graduation or (b) you have to take one to get a job later on. No one willingly chooses to work for free unless we're talking about something where all of the parties involved are choosing to not receive payment, that is, true volunteerism. Unpaid interns are not 'volunteers.' They are workers who are forced to work without pay. In what universe have you interned? No person I have ever met has gotten much of a choice in the kind of work they do or the hours they work at an unpaid internship, myself included. The only people in this country who truly have a voice on the job are unionized - one cannot hope to 'negotiate' anything with their boss unless they have the protection that comes with being a union member.

This is patently false. Ending unpaid internships would not strip anyone of opportunities - except the opportunity of employers to exploit unpaid labor. There will still be internships, and yes, there may be fewer of them because some employers will choose not to have paid internships - but the interns who remain will be getting paychecks and can spend those paychecks in ways that will naturally absorb some of the other folks back into the labor market. This is Keynesianism 101. The canard that "it will all be based on who you know, not what you know" is especially funny when that situation exists literally everywhere in the real world, if you've ever tried to land a job after being out of work for long periods of time. I would suggest that establishing union hiring halls would go a long ways in reducing the nepotism that comes with employer-controlled hiring. That may be something I yet introduce as an amendment.

Playing the victim here doesn't excuse the fact that you are literally arguing in favor of preserving a system of exploitative, unpaid labor that is a very modern form of slavery. Try and dodge it all you like, but your arguments here are certainly not pro-labor.

There are compromises I would be willing to make if a majority of Senators agree, such as requiring that all unpaid internships count for college credit and requiring that businesses cover transportation costs. Stripping unpaid internships puts the student at an unfair advantage, especially lower-income students, as attaining internships and employment out of college will come down to who you know rather than what you've done. Passing this would be counteractive.

I don't think it makes sense to require unpaid internships to count for college credit; they aren't classes and are unlikely to count as anything in particular if they were for credits. It might even end up forcing students to pay tuition for the internships. Or if we forced the companies to pay tuition for them, they might up having to pay more for the unpaid internship than they would for a paid one. It would defeat the purpose.

I concur.

[TJ in Oregon]

TNF, is there any regulation we could impose in your opinion that would cause a downward shift in the supply curve of internships? Or do you believe it is completely inelastic (ie. vertical)?

[tmthforu94]

Amendment:

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This amendment removes the clauses that would require companies to pay those interning prior to the passage of this law. Companies simply shouldn't be forced into this when they had no knowledge of this law when lending out the internships - that's not how the government should work. Secondly, this amendment removes the government takeover of prisons - I'm willing to hear an argument on a government takeover or tighter regulations, but the language in this clause is too vague and I think it would be more appropriate as a separate piece of legislation addressing prison reform. I would be more than happy to work with Senator TNF and others on that.

[TNF]

Amendment:

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This amendment removes the clauses that would require companies to pay those interning prior to the passage of this law. Companies simply shouldn't be forced into this when they had no knowledge of this law when lending out the internships - that's not how the government should work. Secondly, this amendment removes the government takeover of prisons - I'm willing to hear an argument on a government takeover or tighter regulations, but the language in this clause is too vague and I think it would be more appropriate as a separate piece of legislation addressing prison reform. I would be more than happy to work with Senator TNF and others on that.

Amendment is friendly. I can offer the abolition of private prisons as a separate piece of legislation.

[President Tyrion]

It isn't ridiculous, it's the reality of what your "pro-labor" reforms would actually create.

My friends, as most of you would probably agree to, an unpaid internships is most certainly not slavery. An individual makes the personal decision to accept an unpaid internship for the educational experience and employment opportunities that it will open up. As I stated, companies do not "force" unpaid interns to do anything - they have a major say in their responsibilities and control how much and when they work.

There are compromises I would be willing to make if a majority of Senators agree, such as requiring that all unpaid internships count for college credit and requiring that businesses cover transportation costs. Stripping unpaid internships puts the student at an unfair advantage, especially lower-income students, as attaining internships and employment out of college will come down to who you know rather than what you've done. Passing this would be counteractive.

I hope my fellow Senators will engage in a serious discussion over the various sections of this legislation, rather than just throw out petty insults and dismissive statements. This piece of legislation will have great effects on our economy, both good and bad, and a real discussion is needed.

Although I find the allegory to slavery to be quite strong, I do think unpaid internships have no place in Atlasia. You make some good points. I think that businesses should cover transportation costs for unpaid interns (in the case that they continue to exist). In fact, if y'all don't think you have the votes for this bill in its entirety, let's not be like the US Government. Let's pass something of substance that both sides can agree upon. Having unpaid interns lawfully reimbursed for transportation is a good start, as is that prison reform bill.

I don't think interns really get much of a say in their responsibilities. They may have some say in the internship as a whole, but grunt work always tends to happen in cases like this.

College credit, to me, is an idea rife with issues. Adding to what TJ said, college credit is, first and foremost, an insurance measure. Companies that require college credit from interns do so because of liability issues. Basically, by earning college credit, an intern goes as a liability on the college's insurance rather than the company's. If the company isn't going to put you on their insurance, then it really follows that you shouldn't be working there in the first place. College credit just invites universities to open themselves up to liability, and will be a major governmental cost in the long run.

As for your statement that lower income students use unpaid internships to differentiate themselves, that is just not true. Lower income students can't even afford unpaid internships. Naturally, it's a problem that higher income people will have more connections, but that's not really relevant to the bill.

With that said, tmth, I think you're doing a great job working on this bill to make it workable so don't take my criticism of your positions as an affront; naturally, we differ in ideology, but we can both agree that you're doing what you think is best and working hard

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

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Sponsor Feedback: Friendly
Status: Senators have 24 hours to object.

[Gass3268]

I love this bill and I have no issue with the amendments that have been laid out.

[tmthforu94]

Don't forget the two amendments Senator Maxwell introduced!

[Maxwell]

Don't forget the two amendments Senator Maxwell introduced!

Those amendments are not formal... yet.

[Maxwell]

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I'm offering this to be constructive. Once both or one are friendly/voted on, I will propose the other.