German High Court rules that Muslim girls must join mixed-sex swimming lessons

[Tender Branson]

(Reuters) - A German court ruled on Wednesday that Muslim girls must take part in school swimming lessons with boys, in a landmark decision that touches on the sensitive relationship between religion and the state.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/11/us-germany-muslims-swimming-idUSBRE98A13120130911

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Correct decision.

[Supersonic]

Correct decision.

I agree.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

The more correct decision would be to end publicly funded mixed-sex swimming lessons, but yeah the issue of mixed-sex vs. separate-sex PE is not one that should be decided based on the religion of the student's parents.

[ingemann]

The more correct decision would be to end publicly funded mixed-sex swimming lessons, but yeah the issue of mixed-sex vs. separate-sex PE is not one that should be decided based on the religion of the student's parents.

What are your problem with P.E.?

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

The more correct decision would be to end publicly funded mixed-sex swimming lessons, but yeah the issue of mixed-sex vs. separate-sex PE is not one that should be decided based on the religion of the student's parents.

What are your problem with P.E.?

More generally, because of the physical differences between boys and girls, the optimum physical education program will be different for the two sexes, tho there will be considerable overlap.  But also as this case shows, different people have different standards of physical modesty, and that applies not only to what they wear but also what others around them wear.  The "concession" that the student can wear a burkini doesn't address the other concerns about personal modesty.

[Lief 🗽]

All physical education should be separated by sex.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Correct decision.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

We Will Force You To Be Free

[Boris]

All physical education should be separated by sex.

No, K-12 PE is a joke (how many people do you know who are in shape because of middle and high school gym?). Its purpose should be to hang out and dick around with friends.

[Hifly]

Freedom Decision. If you don't like it, you can take your trade elsewhere if you don't have a German passport. Or go to private school.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Or go to private school.

So only the rich have rights?

[Hifly]

Or go to private school.

So only the rich have rights?

Private education is not the only option in this instance.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Or go to private school.

So only the rich have rights?

Private education is not the only option in this instance.

Because leaving the country in which you live is such a great alternative.  I could make a snarky comment here, but I have no desire to invoke Godwin's Law.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Correct decision.

I agree.

The UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights does not.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

[DC Al Fine]

Correct decision.

I agree.

The UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights does not.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

This is outrageous. I've heard various posters from both sides argue that religion shouldn't be accommodated in certain circumstances. I disagree, but seriously guys, if the issue is going to be forced, do you really think we should stomp on the religious freedom of others for the sake of gym class?!?!

[MaxQue]

Correct decision.

I agree.

The UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights does not.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

This is outrageous. I've heard various posters from both sides argue that religion shouldn't be accommodated in certain circumstances. I disagree, but seriously guys, if the issue is going to be forced, do you really think we should stomp on the religious freedom of others for the sake of gym class?!?!

Gender equality is superior to religion freedom. If someone invents a religion where he can lock his wife and beat her, should we let him to do because of freedom of religion?

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Correct decision.

I agree.

The UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights does not.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

This is outrageous. I've heard various posters from both sides argue that religion shouldn't be accommodated in certain circumstances. I disagree, but seriously guys, if the issue is going to be forced, do you really think we should stomp on the religious freedom of others for the sake of gym class?!?!

Gender equality is superior to religion freedom. If someone invents a religion where he can lock his wife and beat her, should we let him to do because of freedom of religion?

No, but because it is an assault on another person, not for the sake of having gender equality enforced on every single aspect of everyone's life.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

BRTD misspelled 'ridiculous and pointless'.

[Swedish Rainbow Capitalist Cheese]

Guys, you are all too moderate in your responses. This thread has such potential for a great flame war between the "You guys are racist" crowd and the "You guys are sexist" crowd. I've got my popcorn ready, so don't hold back.   

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Swedish Cheese is a sexist racist!

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

All physical education should be separated by sex.

I agree. It would smooth a lot of issues over.

Correct decision.

I agree.

The UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights does not.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

The UN Declaration of Human Rights also says healthcare, housing, and employment are rights, which they are not. While I agree with Article 18, I would rather argue the American (or in this case German) constitution's guarantee of religious freedom then the UN Declaration, which I don't view as legitimate.

Anywho, I think this argument depends on the school. If it is a private school in question, then the students have the right to withdraw from the school or comply. If it is a public school, which it is, then I don't think the state should roll over religious freedom for the sake of P.E.

[Vosem]

All physical education should be coed. Oh, and freedom decision. Children must be taught to be comfortable with each other's bodies. There's a pretty clear analogy to the creationism in public schools debate in the US here.

[DC Al Fine]

All physical education should be coed. Oh, and freedom decision. Children must be taught to be comfortable with each other's bodies. There's a pretty clear analogy to the creationism in public schools debate in the US here.

There's no issue of fact like there is with Creationism/Evolution. "Children should be comfortable with each other's bodies" is a value judgement; one that you are apparently willing to trample over parental/religious rights to achieve.

[Franknburger]

Let's add a few points for context:
1. Casualties from drowning in open water have been increasing considerably in Germany. The death toll during the first eight months of 2013 exceeds 360 people. Insufficient swimming training and practice in schools is believed to be a prime reason.

2. The linked Reuters article failed to mention the main point of the verdict. The claimant had argued that participating in swimming lessons would violate Muslim belief, because the girl would have to look at half-naked bodies. The court ruled that the sight of half-naked bodies is so common in Germany (advertising billboards, etc.), that taking part in swimming lessons could not be considered fundamentally different from waiting at bus stops, going cloth shopping, etc.,, and as such did not constitute an undue violation of religious rights. 

3. Otherwise, the court just applied the long-established legal opinion that mandatory public schooling may override other constitutionally guaranteed rights, such as parental education rights. Asides, the German constitution guarantees religious freedom and practice, and forbids religious discrimination, but does nowhere stipulate that government must act in such a way that individual religious beliefs are not offended.