Foreign Policy Review (Rejected)

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

Aye, with reservations.

[Napoleon]

Abstain

[Kaine for Senate '18]

I'd urge the Senate to oppose this amendment.  Military restrictions will hamper Israel's ability to defend itself, and represents an unacceptable tactic to force compromise.

[tmthforu94]

I'd urge the Senate to oppose this amendment.  Military restrictions will hamper Israel's ability to defend itself, and represents an unacceptable tactic to force compromise.

It is certainly an improvement over the current version.


While I realize I'm not a Senator, it still would be appreciated if my question could be answered.

[TJ in Oregon]

I'd urge the Senate to oppose this amendment.  Military restrictions will hamper Israel's ability to defend itself, and represents an unacceptable tactic to force compromise.

It is certainly an improvement over the current version.

Ben, this changes the current proposal from full military restrictions to partial. Opposing the amendment would mean more restrictions than supporting it.

[TNF]

I'd urge the Senate to oppose this amendment.  Military restrictions will hamper Israel's ability to defend itself, and represents an unacceptable tactic to force compromise.

If Israel can't defend itself, why should we defend it? Israel is little better than Apartheid South Africa and I don't want my country defending that kind of country or aiding it with guns, or butter.

[DemPGH]

With four affirmatives, five negatives, and an abstention, the amendment is defeated. Debate may continue.

[Talleyrand]

Private efforts have been made to encourage the Israeli government to move in the appropriate regard, although I suppose one could consider the potential military sanctions the first "hard" move the administration is making in regards to relations with the nation.

Here are some amendments which were discussed earlier.

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Lebanon: Full No military and no economic restrictions.

Bahrain: Full military and no partial economic restrictions.  The Atlasian Government strongly condemns the measures taken against protesters in Bahrain.

Kuwait: Full No military restrictions and partial economic restrictions. We are concerned by a lack of regard for human rights and democracy.

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Federated States of Micronesia: Normal
Marshall Islands: Normal
Palau: Normal

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[Kaine for Senate '18]

Israel is little better than Apartheid South Africa and I don't want my country defending that kind of country or aiding it with guns, or butter.

It is that kind of breathtaking stupidity that harms our position in the world.  Israel is a major ally, and to compare them to apartheid South Africa demonstrates just how little you know, Senator.  Israel is a democracy and a free nation.  It's a pity that you have decided to buy into extremist propaganda, instead of looking at the facts.

[tmthforu94]

Private efforts have been made to encourage the Israeli government to move in the appropriate regard, although I suppose one could consider the potential military sanctions the first "hard" move the administration is making in regards to relations with the nation.

Are there any records of when these private efforts took place, and what the result of them were? I can't find anything related to Israel in "The Global Enquirer".

[Gass3268]

Israel is little better than Apartheid South Africa and I don't want my country defending that kind of country or aiding it with guns, or butter.

It is that kind of breathtaking stupidity that harms our position in the world.  Israel is a major ally, and to compare them to apartheid South Africa demonstrates just how little you know, Senator.  Israel is a democracy and a free nation.  It's a pity that you have decided to buy into extremist propaganda, instead of looking at the facts.

Don't give us the extremist propaganda line, hundreds of of members of my church have been to Israel/Palestine and all have come back saying that the South African Apartheid is the best example to whats going on there. These are people I trust 100%, like our church pastors and regular members that were able to see the brutality with their own eyes. They've come back to show us pictures and tell the horror stories of the occupation of the West Bank to our congregation.

I too used to be a good little sheep, thinking the way the government and media wanted me to think on this matter. Luckily, I've seen the light from those who've been there. That is why I support zero military aid to Israel.  

[TNF]

Israel is little better than Apartheid South Africa and I don't want my country defending that kind of country or aiding it with guns, or butter.

It is that kind of breathtaking stupidity that harms our position in the world.  Israel is a major ally, and to compare them to apartheid South Africa demonstrates just how little you know, Senator.  Israel is a democracy and a free nation.  It's a pity that you have decided to buy into extremist propaganda, instead of looking at the facts.

Israel is a disgusting, racist state parading as a democracy while denying the Palestinians the right to live in their own homeland. It's you who've bought into the propaganda, Ben, not I.

[DemPGH]

FWIW, I think the left and right are largely both half right and half wrong on Israel. The right generally has a whacked view of Israel, but the left seeing Israel as a kind of aggressor is something I don't always agree with. I mean, I think Islam sometimes gets a free pass from the left when it should not, and the Palestinians are seen as victims when it should not always be seen that way.

Israel is in some ways more secular than we are, and they are dealing with people in the Palestinians who, were the situation reversed, the USA would have just wiped out. So we need to look at both sides in that situation. That's a war. Israel took that territory after a battle that lasted six days, so are they entitled to it? Well, I don't know. If it were the USA, we would feel entitled to it, yes. That's all I'm prepared to say. Because it's a touchy issue.

In the final analysis, there is unnecessary violence on both sides, but Israel is an actual ally in that volatile, fanatic-laden region. And we can only blame Western capitalism and the Western hegemony so much. Should Israel have a rubber stamp from us? Certainly no. But are they the bad guys? Certainly no.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The situation definately demands a measured and responsible approach that isn't grounded in an ideology one way or the other. We shouldn't not cater to or absolve the Israelis for the actions they have taken, just as we shouldn't place all the blame on them or declare them as as evil aggressors. I never realized just how close things came to going right in the mid 2000s prior to the election of Hamas and unfortunately since then, it things just seem to be more and more pushed away from where they were when that opportunity was present.

Who is going to offer these amendments that have been posted? I can take some, but it would be more advantageous to spread them around and/or have the sponsor of the FPR take them to save a step. Of course that would also depend on those particular ones having his support or it is a moot point.

[Donerail]

Israel is little better than Apartheid South Africa and I don't want my country defending that kind of country or aiding it with guns, or butter.

It is that kind of breathtaking stupidity that harms our position in the world.  Israel is a major ally, and to compare them to apartheid South Africa demonstrates just how little you know, Senator.  Israel is a democracy and a free nation.  It's a pity that you have decided to buy into extremist propaganda, instead of looking at the facts.

Since I sorta kicked this whole thing off...

I agree with Desmond Tutu, as well as Sens. Gass and TNF - Israel is practicing apartheid in the West Bank and Gaza. But that's not the central focus here. The issue that we're having is that our current position, as fmr. Senator Ben pointed out, is that Israel is presently a major ally, and to them, we are perhaps their closest ally. That position, I believe, offers us a unique opportunity, to continue to support a state that is, within its own borders (ie: excluding Palestine), free and democratic, a rarity for the region. The reason I supported the recently-failed amendment is because we are more likely to achieve a lasting peace settlement, including the creation of an independent and sovereign Palestinian state, if we don't push away the Israelis but instead stand by them while pushing them to improve - engage rather than isolate. Diplomacy is what will bring a lasting solution to the conflict, and starting out with this rather than talks isn't diplomacy.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Indeed, as I said, if we take too hard a line we risk emboldening the hard liners and pushing us even further away from a possible settlement.

[TNF]

Private efforts have been made to encourage the Israeli government to move in the appropriate regard, although I suppose one could consider the potential military sanctions the first "hard" move the administration is making in regards to relations with the nation.

Here are some amendments which were discussed earlier.

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Lebanon: Full No military and no economic restrictions.

Bahrain: Full military and no partial economic restrictions.  The Atlasian Government strongly condemns the measures taken against protesters in Bahrain.

Kuwait: Full No military restrictions and partial economic restrictions. We are concerned by a lack of regard for human rights and democracy.

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Federated States of Micronesia: Normal
Marshall Islands: Normal
Palau: Normal

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I would be willing to offer these as amendments.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

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[Sbane]

Israel is little better than Apartheid South Africa and I don't want my country defending that kind of country or aiding it with guns, or butter.

It is that kind of breathtaking stupidity that harms our position in the world.  Israel is a major ally, and to compare them to apartheid South Africa demonstrates just how little you know, Senator.  Israel is a democracy and a free nation.  It's a pity that you have decided to buy into extremist propaganda, instead of looking at the facts.

Israel is not interested in peace. Just look at their recent decision to keep on building settlements on Palestinian land. Comparing it with South Africa is not helpful (though they are just as morally bankrupt but the situation is different), but Israel is not worthy of our help unless they meet the Palestinians halfway. Just because they are the more powerful nation doesn't mean they get to dictate terms. If that is how they feel, we should not support them.

[Sbane]

FWIW, I think the left and right are largely both half right and half wrong on Israel. The right generally has a whacked view of Israel, but the left seeing Israel as a kind of aggressor is something I don't always agree with. I mean, I think Islam sometimes gets a free pass from the left when it should not, and the Palestinians are seen as victims when it should not always be seen that way.

Israel is in some ways more secular than we are, and they are dealing with people in the Palestinians who, were the situation reversed, the USA would have just wiped out. So we need to look at both sides in that situation. That's a war. Israel took that territory after a battle that lasted six days, so are they entitled to it? Well, I don't know. If it were the USA, we would feel entitled to it, yes. That's all I'm prepared to say. Because it's a touchy issue.

In the final analysis, there is unnecessary violence on both sides, but Israel is an actual ally in that volatile, fanatic-laden region. And we can only blame Western capitalism and the Western hegemony so much. Should Israel have a rubber stamp from us? Certainly no. But are they the bad guys? Certainly no.

Yes, the United States did take a lot of land and committed genocide. But would you support that currently?

[Sbane]

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Could you also add something in about a settlement freeze. That is the first step to any solution.

And just to make it clear, I don't absolve the Palestinians of all responsibility. They have not acted in good faith in the past and are also responsible for the current situation. I don't think there is a "good" side here like you could say there was in South Africa.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Private efforts have been made to encourage the Israeli government to move in the appropriate regard, although I suppose one could consider the potential military sanctions the first "hard" move the administration is making in regards to relations with the nation.

Here are some amendments which were discussed earlier.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Lebanon: Full No military and no economic restrictions.

Bahrain: Full military and no partial economic restrictions.  The Atlasian Government strongly condemns the measures taken against protesters in Bahrain.

Kuwait: Full No military restrictions and partial economic restrictions. We are concerned by a lack of regard for human rights and democracy.

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Federated States of Micronesia: Normal
Marshall Islands: Normal
Palau: Normal

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I would be willing to offer these as amendments.

I will take the last three unless you prefer to take all of them. That will enable us to split them up in to more manageable chunks of four and then my three along with Polnuts as a second batch.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

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Sponsor Feedback: None
Status: Waiting for Feedback/vote tomorrow if none

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We might end up voting for all of these at once, hency why I split them up.

Gass, Friendly or Hostile on these?

[Gass3268]

They are all friendly

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Senators have 24 hours to object to them, running simultaneously.


We'll do my three and Polnut's tomorrow if no one objects.