Opinion of the Alawites

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Horrible Sect for obvious reasons. Easily my least favorite branch of Islam assuming you even consider them Muslim at all, which I don't.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Leaving aside their politics in the ongoing Syrian Civil War, what about their theology is so objectionable that they deserve the horrible sect label?

[politicus]

Freedom sect, like most heretics.

[DC Al Fine]

Indifferent sect

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I still don't understand how exactly their beliefs differ from other Twelver Shia sects.

[politicus]

Its a very eclectic belief system and it has likely changed a lot in recent decades (or at least that's the official/regime version).

But regarding traditional Alawism:

- The veneration of Ali is carried over into actual deification, so that Ali is represented as an incarnation of God. Muhammad was his visible veil and prophet, and Muhammad's companion, Salman al-Farisi, his proselytizer. The three formed a divine triad, but the deification of Ali represents the touchstone of Alawi belief.

- Astral gnosticism and metemspychosis (transmigration of souls) is part of Alawi cosmology.

- Their religious truths are guarded by a caste of religious shaykhs (shuyukh al-din); the mass of uninitiated Alawis know only the exoteric features of their faith. An important visible sign of Alawi esoterism is the absence of mosques from Alawi regions.

- Prayer is not regarded as a general religious obligation since religious truth is the preserve of the religious shaykhs and those few Alawis initiated by them into the mysteries of the doctrine.

- Perception: Twelver Shi'ite heresiographers have traditionally regarded the Alawis as ghulat, "those who exceed" all bounds in their deification of Ali. The Alawis, in turn, held Twelver Shi'ites to be muqassira, "those who fall short" of fathoming Ali's divinity.

- Syria's Alawis do not recognize external authority, and they do not bind themselves as individuals to follow the rulings of the great living ayatollahs. On this (rather crucial) point, they differ from all other Twelver Shi'ites.

[Beet]

BRTDs bigotry is off the rails. Would a thread entitled "Opinion of the Jews FF/HP?" be tolerated here? And if you don't consider them Muslim, how are they still a sect and not a religion? You're just choosing the most debasive titles you can think of. All because they're a minority who don't support a military front where large numbers want to massacre them / suppress them.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

BRTDs bigotry is off the rails. Would a thread entitled "Opinion of the Jews FF/HP?" be tolerated here?

"Opinion of the Jews? XXX is a Jew, I hate him, therefore all Jews are HPs"

[afleitch]

BRTDs bigotry is off the rails. Would a thread entitled "Opinion of the Jews FF/HP?" be tolerated here?

There has been 'Opinion of' polls on religion here for a long time. There's been two on atheism. So the short answer is, yes, they are tolerated even though in the case of most of the OP's, I question why they ask.

[politicus]

BRTDs bigotry is off the rails. Would a thread entitled "Opinion of the Jews FF/HP?" be tolerated here?

There has been 'Opinion of' polls on religion here for a long time. There's been two on atheism. So the short answer is, yes, they are tolerated even though in the case of most of the OP's, I question why they ask.

The one we had about Calvinism was pretty good. Regarding the Alawites I suppose one could be against all esoteric religions based on a belief that they are anti-democratic and elitist and keep most of the followers as ignorant "sheeps" to be manipulated by the leaders. Otherwise I fail to see what could be considered horrible about their beliefs unless you are an orthodox Muslim or generally anti-Islamic.

[Zioneer]

I like the idea of their theology and the fact that they're sort of heretics to the main version of their religion (as is my faith), so Freedom Sect.

They gotta stop relying on strongman dictators to keep them around, though.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Its a very eclectic belief system and it has likely changed a lot in recent decades (or at least that's the official/regime version).

But regarding traditional Alawism:

- The veneration of Ali is carried over into actual deification, so that Ali is represented as an incarnation of God. Muhammad was his visible veil and prophet, and Muhammad's companion, Salman al-Farisi, his proselytizer. The three formed a divine triad, but the deification of Ali represents the touchstone of Alawi belief.

- Astral gnosticism and metemspychosis (transmigration of souls) is part of Alawi cosmology.

- Their religious truths are guarded by a caste of religious shaykhs (shuyukh al-din); the mass of uninitiated Alawis know only the exoteric features of their faith. An important visible sign of Alawi esoterism is the absence of mosques from Alawi regions.

- Prayer is not regarded as a general religious obligation since religious truth is the preserve of the religious shaykhs and those few Alawis initiated by them into the mysteries of the doctrine.

- Perception: Twelver Shi'ite heresiographers have traditionally regarded the Alawis as ghulat, "those who exceed" all bounds in their deification of Ali. The Alawis, in turn, held Twelver Shi'ites to be muqassira, "those who fall short" of fathoming Ali's divinity.

- Syria's Alawis do not recognize external authority, and they do not bind themselves as individuals to follow the rulings of the great living ayatollahs. On this (rather crucial) point, they differ from all other Twelver Shi'ites.

Thank you! This is very interesting.

Absent mosques and obligatory prayer, how exactly do Alawite services, if any, work?

[politicus]

I have never witnessed a service or seen a step by step description from someone who had, but they worship in their homes and at tombs of famous saints. Music, dancing and singing plays an important part in the service, the other main part is a ceremony called Quddas where wine and bread are consecrated and partaken of by initiated men. The wine is called "the servant of light" (Abd al-Nur) and considered to be the essence of God, transsubstantiated by the mass and offered to the believer.  

Edit: Since I dont know of any Westerners actually witnessing an Alawit service the first bit can seem naive, but its just for clarification.
There are Alawites who have left the faith and described rites, feasts etc., so it probably possible to find a detailed description of a service, but I dont have a reference. 

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Leaving aside their politics in the ongoing Syrian Civil War, what about their theology is so objectionable that they deserve the horrible sect label?

You can't leave aside the politics. Being the source of support for a brutal and murderous dictator is not a positive thing.

[DC Al Fine]

Leaving aside their politics in the ongoing Syrian Civil War, what about their theology is so objectionable that they deserve the horrible sect label?

You can't leave aside the politics. Being the source of support for a brutal and murderous dictator is not a positive thing.

At least try to see the other side of the argument. Not all the rebels are for liberal democracy and not all the Assad supporters are blood thirsty goons.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

You know, their theology and liturgy as politicus is describing it sounds fascinating enough that I would unhesitatingly vote Freedom Sect if the political situation weren't what it is.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Leaving aside their politics in the ongoing Syrian Civil War, what about their theology is so objectionable that they deserve the horrible sect label?

You can't leave aside the politics. Being the source of support for a brutal and murderous dictator is not a positive thing.

At least try to see the other side of the argument. Not all the rebels are for liberal democracy

True.

and not all the Assad supporters are blood thirsty goons.

Why on Earth would you support him otherwise? If you want a brutal and murderous dictator to keep oppressing and killing people...

You know, their theology and liturgy as politicus is describing it sounds fascinating enough that I would unhesitatingly vote Freedom Sect if the political situation weren't what it is.

I'll admit I find it kind of interesting they have some equivalent to communion.

[DC Al Fine]

Leaving aside their politics in the ongoing Syrian Civil War, what about their theology is so objectionable that they deserve the horrible sect label?

You can't leave aside the politics. Being the source of support for a brutal and murderous dictator is not a positive thing.

At least try to see the other side of the argument. Not all the rebels are for liberal democracy

True.

and not all the Assad supporters are blood thirsty goons.

Why on Earth would you support him otherwise? If you want a brutal and murderous dictator to keep oppressing and killing people...

Off the top of my head.

1) Alawite tribalism
2) Fear of persecution should the rebels win
3) Believing that the rebels will oppress & kill people even more than Assad

There's an Iraqi couple at my church who think Saddam Hussein was the best leader ever because he kept the Islamists in line. Not bloodthirsty people, but they supported a dictator. Life's complicated.

[afleitch]

I have a gay Turkish acquaintance who lives in Edinburgh. He was an Alawite. From what I can recall he said much of their system of belief isn’t universal to all Alawites. Political separation (Turkey as opposed to Syria) made a bit of a difference. He was from a communist family IIRC. I’ll need to see if I can get in touch with him.

[ingemann]

I have a gay Turkish acquaintance who lives in Edinburgh. He was an Alawite. From what I can recall he said much of their system of belief isn’t universal to all Alawites. Political separation (Turkey as opposed to Syria) made a bit of a difference. He was from a communist family IIRC. I’ll need to see if I can get in touch with him.

While Turkey have Alewites (in the South East), that make Turkey complex is that their exist a large (15-20% of the Turkish population is believed to follow it) Shia sect in Turkey named Alevism, who have little in common with the Alewites beside both being official Shiites.

As for Alewites, of course they're not Muslims, but I don't see why we as non-Muslims should care about that. As for freedom or horrible religion, I'm really neutral, I find the sect preferable to Muslims, as they seem less obnoxious (lacking the whole purity aspect of Islam), but just because I would rather hang out with a Alewites over a Muslims, doesn't really give a value for whether the sect is a freedom or horrible thing.

As for BRTD he's a horrible little turd, who should stop supporting genocide.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Not liking a group's support for a murderous dictator is not advocating genocide against them. Calling for an end to apartheid for example was obviously not supporting an Afrikaner genocide.

If you want to see genocide note what Assad's daddy did in Hama.

[CatoMinor]

BRTD, whats wrong is that you are labeling an entire people as bad because most of them happen to be on one of the multiple awful sides.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I do recall reading a news story awhile back about how some Alawites actually had turned on Assad, but as a result were shunned by their families, condemned by leaders, and one who was tortured for saying negative things about the regime and told she was "a disgrace to Alawites". Obviously not every single person born into that sect is horrible as that proves (though as I've said many times, I'd simply convert out of it if born into it), but I can't approve of any community that does such awful things to someone who dares stand against a murderous dictator.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I should also point out that expressing disapproval overall of a certain group obviously doesn't mean I hate everyone in it. For example see what Lief and I were saying about whites a little while ago, that obviously doesn't mean I hate whites since in addition to being self-loathing I'd have to hate almost everyone at the at least 95% event I was just at. Hell the Republican Party's voter base is less white than the shows I go to in general. Also if there was a poll "opinion of evangelical Protestantism" I would definitely have to vote in the negative overall for obvious reasons.

[Stranger in a strange land]

I get the sense that Syria isn't the type of place where you can convert out of being Alawite even if you want to, in the sense that even if you did, society as a whole wouldn't acknowledge your conversion, and more to the point, you would not only be ostracized from your entire social circle, but also not accepted by the adherents of whatever religion or sect you were trying to convert into.