Pledge of Allegiance

[Akno21]

What does that have to do with this topic?  The question is whether or not kids should be required to say the pledge, not whether "under God" should be in it.

Because the vast majority of Americans support both the pledge being recited and the prepositional phrase "under God".  Any attempt to question either breeds mistrust.  A smart politician understands the values of middle America.

Why are the values of middle America more important than the values of the West Coast or the values of the Northeast?

Akno, about 90% of the people favor keeping "under God" in the pledge.  That's a lot more than middle America.  And it's highly dangerous to say that the coastal areas should have different values than middle America.  It's better to say we have similar values, with emphasis in different areas, and different ideas about how to reach similar goals.

To argue against the pledge of allegiance is to argue against American values, not middle American, versus "coastal elite," values.  Are you saying that those on the coasts are not Americans?  I have to say - many liberals don't act like Americans really, so you're onto something.

I think every child should be taught the pledge of allegiance, and it should be said in school preferably daily, but at least at regular intervals.  I deeply believe in the ideals expressed by the pledge, and every American should, regardless of political affiliation.  Obviously, anybody who doesn't want to say it can't be forced.  Words can't be forced out of our mouths.  But all kids should be exposed to the ideals of the pledge.  If they reject them, it's their loss.

I was aiming more at the perception that those in middle america are somehow more genuine or real authentic Americans than those on the coasts.

I personally don't see what under god adds to the pledge, although I don't think anyone is hurt if their classmates say under god.

How do "act like an American"? If acting like an American is code for going to church every Saturday, not protesting things you find unjust, etc., then I sure don't want to act American.

I don't really see the point in having six year olds pledge allegiance to a piece of cloth which represents something they cannot understand, but again, no one is hurt by it. If people truly believe that is what America stands for, let them go ahead and say it, but I prefer to stand by my ideals and values of what is right rather than go along with whatever my country does, which is basically what the pledge tells us to do.

[dazzleman]

I was aiming more at the perception that those in middle america are somehow more genuine or real authentic Americans than those on the coasts.

I personally don't see what under god adds to the pledge, although I don't think anyone is hurt if their classmates say under god.

How do "act like an American"? If acting like an American is code for going to church every Saturday, not protesting things you find unjust, etc., then I sure don't want to act American.

I don't really see the point in having six year olds pledge allegiance to a piece of cloth which represents something they cannot understand, but again, no one is hurt by it. If people truly believe that is what America stands for, let them go ahead and say it, but I prefer to stand by my ideals and values of what is right rather than go along with whatever my country does, which is basically what the pledge tells us to do.

The pledge does not require us to go along with everything the country does.  In fact, you could argue that it requires us to speak out against those things which violate its spirit.

I view the pledge as much more than six-year-olds mouthing meaningless words to a piece of cloth.  Frankly, it is that type of cynicism that has gotten liberals tagged with the label of not "acting like Americans."  The recitation of the pledge, and the words and ideals behind it, are part of the education of our kids as to what America means.  America is not a place, or an ethnicity, but a set of values.  Other countries have a common ethnicity and/or a long history, but we don't have those things.  We are bound together by our values and ideals, nothing else.  That is our greatest strength, and must recognize this and pass those ideals on to succeeding generations.

Being a good American has nothing to do with going to church, per se.  Nor is it contingent on agreeing to everything the government does.  Your cynicism here is quite disturbing, and unfortunately quite typical of elites in the more liberal states.  You really don't seem to get what I'm saying because your cynicism has formed such a hard shell around you.

Liberal elites have been tagged with the anti-American label in many cases because, far from simply speaking out against what they believe is objectively wrong, they seem to believe that WHATEVER America does is wrong, BY DEFINITION.  This is the perception some liberals have created, and this is quite different from loyal dissent.  The liberal attitude toward the pledge of allegiance is an extension of this attitude.

[TomC]

Heck, let's make everyone say it if we're going to require kids too. Why should kids at school be forced to say it, or involved in a regular practice of saying it if adults don't.

How would you feel (to adults here) if you were expected to participate in the pledge every morning at work? Let's be consistent here. I haven't heard calls for everyone to say it.

[dazzleman]

Heck, let's make everyone say it if we're going to require kids too. Why should kids at school be forced to say it, or involved in a regular practice of saying it if adults don't.

How would you feel (to adults here) if you were expected to participate in the pledge every morning at work? Let's be consistent here. I haven't heard calls for everyone to say it.

I wouldn't mind.  But of course, I'm not at work to be educated.  Civics should be part of education.

[angus]

I'm not at work to be educated.  Civics should be part of education.

finally.
 

also, akno, read:  ...to the republic for which it stands.  So you're not pledging to the cloth, but to the nation-state. 

"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world
 than the pride that devides when a colorful rag is unfurled."
   --Neil Peart

Great lyric.  Sometimes I totally agree with that. 

When I'm stoned.

[© tweed]

I've changed my mind on this one...I used to think it shouldn't be said.  Dig up the old board posts.  But now, just let the kids ignore it if they don't want to say it.  That's what I do and I am not offended.

Plus an ephisode, or a series of ephisodes, with a girl has led me to believe in god in a non-religious sense.

[PBrunsel]

I think the Pledge should be recited by every student, unless a parental note says otherwise.

[Redefeatbush04]

I think the Pledge should be recited by every student, unless a parental note says otherwise.

Why? It doesn't really accomplish much. Osama can recite the pledge of allegience and order an attack on the US in the same day. A pledge is only as good as one's word. And if forced to pledge, it kind of defeats the purpose. It is like torturing criminals. If you torture them they will say something just so that u stop......it does not mean that what they say is correct information. If they want to pledge allegience then they can. If they don't want to they should not have to. If they want to include under God they can. If they don't want to, they should not have to.

[Akno21]

I think the Pledge should be recited by every student, unless a parental note says otherwise.

Why should parents control what I say in school?

[phk]

Keep the original pledge, but don't force kids to say it.

[PBrunsel]

I think the Pledge should be recited by every student, unless a parental note says otherwise.

Why should parents control what I say in school?

Parents or legal guardians are the protectorates of the kid, so if they have any problems with their child saying the pledge than a note can be written. Just like a doctor's note that an inhaler needs to be taken.

[Akno21]

I think the Pledge should be recited by every student, unless a parental note says otherwise.

Why should parents control what I say in school?

Parents or legal guardians are the protectorates of the kid, so if they have any problems with their child saying the pledge than a note can be written. Just like a doctor's note that an inhaler needs to be taken.

But what if the kid has a problem saying it and the parents don't?

[PBrunsel]

I think the Pledge should be recited by every student, unless a parental note says otherwise.

Why should parents control what I say in school?

Parents or legal guardians are the protectorates of the kid, so if they have any problems with their child saying the pledge than a note can be written. Just like a doctor's note that an inhaler needs to be taken.

But what if the kid has a problem saying it and the parents don't?

It all comes down to what kind of parent it is. Is it one who respects the political belief of the kid or not.

And come on, the Pledge takes 20 seconds to say at most. How lazy are you to not simply stand in respect for those who died fighting for your right to spew your opinion on a message board?

[Alcon]

I think the Pledge should be recited by every student, unless a parental note says otherwise.

Why should parents control what I say in school?

Parents or legal guardians are the protectorates of the kid, so if they have any problems with their child saying the pledge than a note can be written. Just like a doctor's note that an inhaler needs to be taken.

But what if the kid has a problem saying it and the parents don't?

It all comes down to what kind of parent it is. Is it one who respects the political belief of the kid or not.

And come on, the Pledge takes 20 seconds to say at most. How lazy are you to not simply stand in respect for those who died fighting for your right to spew your opinion on a message board?

How does reciting the Pledge have anything to do with respecting those who fought in a War? The Pledge is one to the flag, not thanking those who have served. Not saying the Pledge does not make one patriotic - it's a show of respect, yes, but there are other ways to respect one's country. I personally would rather do something such as prepare care kits for soldiers than to stand and recite something that has become so tedious to most people as to render it near-meaningless.

Kids should not be forced to say it. It's a quick 20 second thing, which is exactly why this is not a big deal. The Pledge is not sacred, but rather just a show of respect. That should not be enforced.

[Akno21]

I think the Pledge should be recited by every student, unless a parental note says otherwise.

Why should parents control what I say in school?

Parents or legal guardians are the protectorates of the kid, so if they have any problems with their child saying the pledge than a note can be written. Just like a doctor's note that an inhaler needs to be taken.

But what if the kid has a problem saying it and the parents don't?

It all comes down to what kind of parent it is. Is it one who respects the political belief of the kid or not.

And come on, the Pledge takes 20 seconds to say at most. How lazy are you to not simply stand in respect for those who died fighting for your right to spew your opinion on a message board?

It's not laziness that makes people refuse to say the pledge. They are opposed to what the US Government is doing. Let them do it.

Under your plan, if the student does not have parental permission, would he get in trouble for not saying the pledge?

[PBrunsel]

I think the Pledge should be recited by every student, unless a parental note says otherwise.

Why should parents control what I say in school?

Parents or legal guardians are the protectorates of the kid, so if they have any problems with their child saying the pledge than a note can be written. Just like a doctor's note that an inhaler needs to be taken.

But what if the kid has a problem saying it and the parents don't?

It all comes down to what kind of parent it is. Is it one who respects the political belief of the kid or not.

And come on, the Pledge takes 20 seconds to say at most. How lazy are you to not simply stand in respect for those who died fighting for your right to spew your opinion on a message board?

How does reciting the Pledge have anything to do with respecting those who fought in a War? The Pledge is one to the flag, not thanking those who have served. Not saying the Pledge does not make one patriotic - it's a show of respect, yes, but there are other ways to respect one's country. I personally would rather do something such as prepare care kits for soldiers than to stand and recite something that has become so tedious to most people as to render it near-meaningless.

Kids should not be forced to say it. It's a quick 20 second thing, which is exactly why this is not a big deal. The Pledge is not sacred, but rather just a show of respect. That should not be enforced.

It's respect to those who rose that flag so we may be free. It's a pledge to the ideals that our Fore Fathers gave so much for. It's a pledge to our flag which stands for freedom. That is what the Plege of Allegiance is.

[PBrunsel]

I think the Pledge should be recited by every student, unless a parental note says otherwise.

Why should parents control what I say in school?

Parents or legal guardians are the protectorates of the kid, so if they have any problems with their child saying the pledge than a note can be written. Just like a doctor's note that an inhaler needs to be taken.

Indeed they would get in trouble. If you were to leave school without parental permission would you not get in trouble?

But what if the kid has a problem saying it and the parents don't?

It all comes down to what kind of parent it is. Is it one who respects the political belief of the kid or not.

And come on, the Pledge takes 20 seconds to say at most. How lazy are you to not simply stand in respect for those who died fighting for your right to spew your opinion on a message board?

It's not laziness that makes people refuse to say the pledge. They are opposed to what the US Government is doing. Let them do it.

Under your plan, if the student does not have parental permission, would he get in trouble for not saying the pledge?

[Alcon]

It all comes down to what kind of parent it is. Is it one who respects the political belief of the kid or not.

And come on, the Pledge takes 20 seconds to say at most. How lazy are you to not simply stand in respect for those who died fighting for your right to spew your opinion on a message board?

How does reciting the Pledge have anything to do with respecting those who fought in a War? The Pledge is one to the flag, not thanking those who have served. Not saying the Pledge does not make one patriotic - it's a show of respect, yes, but there are other ways to respect one's country. I personally would rather do something such as prepare care kits for soldiers than to stand and recite something that has become so tedious to most people as to render it near-meaningless.

Kids should not be forced to say it. It's a quick 20 second thing, which is exactly why this is not a big deal. The Pledge is not sacred, but rather just a show of respect. That should not be enforced.

It's respect to those who rose that flag so we may be free. It's a pledge to the ideals that our Fore Fathers gave so much for. It's a pledge to our flag which stands for freedom. That is what the Plege of Allegiance is.

That's very patriotic of you, and indeed it is that, but to the average schoolchild it is just a meaningless thing that is said during the school announcements every morning. We are made to say it daily, sometimes more than that. You have to understand that the words are no longer words, but rather have become simply sounds. I can recite the pledge without even thinking about the words in it.

Of course, I know what it is about, but not all kids do. And even if I think that it is a good, patriotic thing to say it in full, that is just me. Why should I legally force others to? What are they going to do, arrest children that don't? Give them detention? Not reciting the Pledge is not going to hurt anyone. If they want to be unpatriotic, they have that right to.

[Citizen James]

So, should children recite first thing every morning a poem written in the late 19th century by a socialist which had a few extra words added during McCarthyism?

The problem is that if you constantly repeat something it tends to lose meaning.  In too many cases it has become little more than a ritual, with little to no meaning assigned to the words.  I would really rather have the kids watch the Red Skelleton bit in which he explains the pledge once a year - and some discussion of the words, what they mean, and what ideals the flag represent.   But as far as rituals go, it's fairly harmless.

Now, if I could just get the Calvin and Hobbes version out of my skull...

[© tweed]

I think the Pledge should be recited by every student, unless a parental note says otherwise.

That's silly.  You know it.

I could debate it with you but I'm in atlas forum semi retirement so I choose not to.  There's little I can say on this issue that I haven't said before, even though I've changed my position on it.

[PBrunsel]

I think the Pledge should be recited by every student, unless a parental note says otherwise.

That's silly.  You know it.

It's actually sensible enough for every political mind here not to like. As soon as something is made simple, than politics will hate it.

[© tweed]

I think the Pledge should be recited by every student, unless a parental note says otherwise.

That's silly.  You know it.

It's actually sensible enough for every political mind here not to like. As soon as something is made simple, than politics will hate it.

Here's something simpler:

The pledge is recited.  Those who want to say it say it.  Those who don't don't.

Simple enough?

[Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck]

No.  I proudly say it every morning, save for the god part, but nationalism should be found by the individual, not pressured and forced through a pledge. 

Actually, when I say it I'm pledging alligence to freedom and equality and what America stands for.  I have no reservation about rebelling against the US if and when I deem it necessary, which will probably be at a point when I no longer consider America, "America". 

[Joe Republic]

I don't mind it being said, and I oppose it being forced.

Personally I don't even see the point of it any more.  They're just words.  Words that have been drilled into everybody's skulls so many times that they've lost all meaning.  Plus, actions speak much louder than words.  Your can show your patriotism in so many different ways than getting up, putting your hand on your heart, and reciting a passage to the frankly quite inattentive audience of a flag.

[David S]

I'm fine with them doing it, but they shouldn't be able to force kids who don't want to to do it.

John you're making my life easy. All I have to do is say Ditto.