Gay vs. Christian - Jason Collins vs. Tim Tebow

[Joe Biden 2020]

The main point I'm trying to get across is that if the media is to be neutral on Christianity, not for or against, it should be neutral on homosexuality, neither for nor against.

Following this logic, the media should be neutral on both civil rights issues and the KKK. Wouldn't want to be unfair to either group.

At least allow dissenting view points without being forced to apologize.

America was designed with freedom of speech and that should be enforced and appreciated even when it comes to controversial topics like religion, politics, or sexual orientation.

You're very explicitly endorsing bigotry and discrimination against a minority group. Shame on you.

So, not applauding and embracing homosexuality is bigotry?

Thinking there is anything wrong with the "homosexual lifestyle" is, which is what Chris Broussard said. Anyone trying to empower Broussard's words or even defend his viewpoint is endorsing the spread of bigotry.

So, standing up for the Bible and God's laws is bigotry and should not be tolerated?

[Joe Biden 2020]

I tell you one thing, Chris Broussard is on the right side of history and the right side of the future.

[Franzl]

The main point I'm trying to get across is that if the media is to be neutral on Christianity, not for or against, it should be neutral on homosexuality, neither for nor against.

Following this logic, the media should be neutral on both civil rights issues and the KKK. Wouldn't want to be unfair to either group.

At least allow dissenting view points without being forced to apologize.

America was designed with freedom of speech and that should be enforced and appreciated even when it comes to controversial topics like religion, politics, or sexual orientation.

See my last comment (which I have already repeated once). There aren't any "viewpoints" to discuss.

If this topic is ALL about courage, and has NOTHING to do with homosexuality, then I agree with you, but the media should allow dissenting view points that don't endorse, embrace, and applaud homosexuality.

You're still not understanding the problem. Would it be acceptable to recognize "dissenting view points that don't endorse, embrace and applaud" being black, for example?

[BluegrassBlueVote]

I tell you one thing, Chris Broussard is on the right side of history and the right side of the future.

Troll detected.

[Joe Biden 2020]

Whatever, I'm done with this conversation.

[Holmes]

You brought it upon yourself.

[Keystone Phil]

This one grabbed my attention yesterday because of Tebow's tweet. Starting off, I'm a Tebow fan. I'm a fan of his as an athlete but I guess I have a soft spot because he is genuinely religious and isn't afraid of stating it. In a sports culture that spends far more time on fashion, cars, jewelry, outlandish behavior, etc., it's refreshing that someone talks about God in more than a "I just want to thank God" way. I'm all for Tebow expressing his beliefs and he shouldn't be told to shut up about it any more than other players that broadcast their lifestyle choices.

All of that being said, I think there was a disconnect between why Collins was being praised. If Collins' homosexuality was being dwelled on all of the time, I'd see Tebow's frustration because of the hypocrisy: Collins is "allowed" to and "celebrated" for proudly stating what makes him who he is but Tebow's religion should remain between Tebow and God. But this was about someone coming out. Whether you approve of it or not, it was a notable moment in sports and culture in this country and, yes, it took quite a bit of courage.

I don't think anyone truly wants Tebow congratulated for being "courageously" Christian. Yes, in some respects being outwardly religious as a Christian in this country can be a challenge even though Christians are by far the majority. The "You're the majority. You don't face unfair treatment/criticism" argument just doesn't fly. But taking all of that into consideration, this still isn't about Tebow deserving praise simply for being religious; it's about respect for who he is and allowing him to be that way without asking him to keep it to himself.

At the end of the day, Collins and Tebow are athletes. When either of them has their sexual orientation or religious beliefs monopolize the locker room conversation, then I'll say that they're both wrong. When asked about blocking a shot on the court, the conversation shouldn't be, "I made that block because I'm a gay man." When Tebow is asked how the team needs to improve on third down, it shouldn't become a discussion focused on God's role in the game. And you know what? I don't think either of these players will do that. I think this is more about the rest of us and learning to accept big announcements like Collins' and personal faith expressions like Tebow's.

[minionofmidas]

Both are gay, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear they're both Christians too.

[afleitch]

Both are gay, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear they're both Christians too.

More than likely. One has been able to deal with it the other hasn't.

Bushie, don't start topics like this unless you can deal with the reaction. I don't see how it is possible to take a neutral stand on being a woman, black, hispanic, blue eyed or gay. And since it is very disturbing to take a stand against people being those things, one must think of them in a positive light.

[Brittain33]

The main point I'm trying to get across is that if the media is to be neutral on Christianity, not for or against, it should be neutral on homosexuality, neither for nor against.

The reason they are promoting this is because sports is not neutral on homosexuality, it is very strongly against, and this is viewed as a problem by many, including people in sports.

Sports is generally positive on Christianity and there's not much for the media to do.

[Brittain33]

If this topic is ALL about courage, and has NOTHING to do with homosexuality, then I agree with you, but the media should allow dissenting view points that don't endorse, embrace, and applaud homosexuality.

I'm going to guess that talk radio had plenty of space for those views to be expressed, constitutionally.

[Joe Biden 2020]

Oh well, I am going to close this thread.  Like I said in the National Day of Prayer thread, I came into that thread and created this thread with my gloves on looking for a fight.  I don't want this to blow up any more than what is has.  We all have our different viewpoints, all of which should be expressed in the public arena without fear of ridicule, harassment, humiliation, etc.  The same goes for mainstream view points and outlandish and controversial view points like the demographic dissension that Andrew is talking about.  Everyone has their view points and everyone should be able to express them.  This is America, we are a Democracy, not a Dictatorship.

[Joe Biden 2020]

The main point I'm trying to get across is that if the media is to be neutral on Christianity, not for or against, it should be neutral on homosexuality, neither for nor against.

The reason they are promoting this is because sports is not neutral on homosexuality, it is very strongly against, and this is viewed as a problem by many, including people in sports.

Sports is generally positive on Christianity and there's not much for the media to do.

That I agree with.  Sports has been traditionally too macho for different sexual orientations.  Personally, I applaud Mr. Collins for coming out and breaking through the prism, but I don't feel that everybody should have to feel the same way.

[Franzl]

Oh well, I am going to close this thread.  Like I said in the National Day of Prayer thread, I came into that thread and created this thread with my gloves on looking for a fight.  I don't want this to blow up any more than what is has.  We all have our different viewpoints, all of which should be expressed in the public arena without fear of ridicule, harassment, humiliation, etc.  The same goes for mainstream view points and outlandish and controversial view points like the demographic dissension that Andrew is talking about.  Everyone has their view points and everyone should be able to express them.  This is America, we are a Democracy, not a Dictatorship.

That's like trying to fight a group of people with machine guns with a rifle (symbolically for the quality of the arguments in this fight), to put it in Oklahoman terms.

[Joe Biden 2020]

Oh well, I am going to close this thread.  Like I said in the National Day of Prayer thread, I came into that thread and created this thread with my gloves on looking for a fight.  I don't want this to blow up any more than what is has.  We all have our different viewpoints, all of which should be expressed in the public arena without fear of ridicule, harassment, humiliation, etc.  The same goes for mainstream view points and outlandish and controversial view points like the demographic dissension that Andrew is talking about.  Everyone has their view points and everyone should be able to express them.  This is America, we are a Democracy, not a Dictatorship.

That's like trying to fight a group of people with machine guns with a rifle (symbolically for the quality of the arguments in this fight), to put it in Oklahoman terms.

Or trying to bring a knife to a gun fight.

[Negusa Nagast 🚀]

I don't think anyone truly wants Tebow congratulated for being "courageously" Christian. Yes, in some respects being outwardly religious as a Christian in this country can be a challenge even though Christians are by far the majority. The "You're the majority. You don't face unfair treatment/criticism" argument just doesn't fly.

False equivalency much?

The Christian Victim Complex is quite cute. "We're the majority, but when you enforce the separation of church and state, or subject our holy book to scrutiny, we're being discriminated against!"

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Both are gay, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear they're both Christians too.

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Collins is relatively traditionally Christian, yeah.

I don't think anyone truly wants Tebow congratulated for being "courageously" Christian. Yes, in some respects being outwardly religious as a Christian in this country can be a challenge even though Christians are by far the majority. The "You're the majority. You don't face unfair treatment/criticism" argument just doesn't fly.

False equivalency much?

The Christian Victim Complex is quite cute. "We're the majority, but when you enforce the separation of church and state, or subject our holy book to scrutiny, we're being discriminated against!"

That isn't what Phil said. He said that being outwardly religious as a Christian can be a challenge in this country, which, so long as he accepts that expressing any belief strongly can be a challenge in some situations, particularly considering the superficiality of elements of the culture, I don't think means the same thing.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

I tell you one thing, Chris Broussard is on the right side of history and the right side of the future.

I can guarantee you that isn't true.

[Negusa Nagast 🚀]

I don't think anyone truly wants Tebow congratulated for being "courageously" Christian. Yes, in some respects being outwardly religious as a Christian in this country can be a challenge even though Christians are by far the majority. The "You're the majority. You don't face unfair treatment/criticism" argument just doesn't fly.

False equivalency much?

The Christian Victim Complex is quite cute. "We're the majority, but when you enforce the separation of church and state, or subject our holy book to scrutiny, we're being discriminated against!"

That isn't what Phil said. He said that being outwardly religious as a Christian can be a challenge in this country, which, so long as he accepts that expressing any belief strongly can be a challenge in some situations, particularly considering the superficiality of elements of the culture, I don't think means the same thing.

His statement is quite clear: expressing Christianity in America can be a challenge. He did not qualify it with "strongly." I am not saying that Christians never face blowback ever, but the blowback they receive is not on the same order of magnitude that Muslims or Atheists get for the same amount of belief expression.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I don't think anyone truly wants Tebow congratulated for being "courageously" Christian. Yes, in some respects being outwardly religious as a Christian in this country can be a challenge even though Christians are by far the majority. The "You're the majority. You don't face unfair treatment/criticism" argument just doesn't fly.

False equivalency much?

The Christian Victim Complex is quite cute. "We're the majority, but when you enforce the separation of church and state, or subject our holy book to scrutiny, we're being discriminated against!"

That isn't what Phil said. He said that being outwardly religious as a Christian can be a challenge in this country, which, so long as he accepts that expressing any belief strongly can be a challenge in some situations, particularly considering the superficiality of elements of the culture, I don't think means the same thing.

His statement is quite clear: expressing Christianity in America can be a challenge. He did not qualify it with "strongly." I am not saying that Christians never face blowback ever, but the blowback they receive is not on the same order of magnitude that Muslims or Atheists get for the same amount of belief expression.

He did, however, qualify it with 'in some respects'. I think it behooves us to wait and see if Phil explains what exactly he meant by this.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

I don't think anyone truly wants Tebow congratulated for being "courageously" Christian. Yes, in some respects being outwardly religious as a Christian in this country can be a challenge even though Christians are by far the majority. The "You're the majority. You don't face unfair treatment/criticism" argument just doesn't fly.

False equivalency much?

The Christian Victim Complex is quite cute. "We're the majority, but when you enforce the separation of church and state, or subject our holy book to scrutiny, we're being discriminated against!"

That isn't what Phil said. He said that being outwardly religious as a Christian can be a challenge in this country, which, so long as he accepts that expressing any belief strongly can be a challenge in some situations, particularly considering the superficiality of elements of the culture, I don't think means the same thing.

His statement is quite clear: expressing Christianity in America can be a challenge. He did not qualify it with "strongly." I am not saying that Christians never face blowback ever, but the blowback they receive is not on the same order of magnitude that Muslims or Atheists get for the same amount of belief expression.

He did, however, qualify it with 'in some respects'. I think it behooves us to wait and see if Phil explains what exactly he meant by this.

Agreed.  The title of the thread includes "Tebow", and this



is a strong expression, which has proven to be a challenge, for a Christian Tebow.

[RogueBeaver]

On the OP: simply false.

[afleitch]

The point that needs to be made is that our media and pop culture make it acceptable to make fun of Christians, but when someone disagrees with the homosexual agenda they're called a bigot and forced to apologize. There's an undeniable double standard. Bravely standing up for what you believe in should be lauded no matter your belief. If you're an evangelical Christian (athlete or sportscaster) and are very open about your faith, congratulations. That takes courage in this society. If If you're a professional athlete who comes out as gay, you're also courageous. Both people have the right to opine. That's a perfect example of equality that so many people dislike.

You lost me at the part I highlighted in bold. Anyone who uses phraseology the lines of 'homosexual agenda' quite clearly does not advance 'a perfect example of equality.'

[Franzl]

I don't understand why we're even discussing what someone is allowed to say. Nobody ever suggested that anti-gay bigotry should be illegal.

It's just something Bushie came up with because he either missed the point or realized he couldn't win the debate without moving the goal posts.

[MaxQue]

The point that needs to be made is that our media and pop culture make it acceptable to make fun of Christians, but when someone disagrees with the homosexual agenda homosexuality on religious grounds, they're called a bigot and forced to apologize. There's an undeniable double standard. Bravely standing up for what you believe in should be lauded no matter your belief. If you're an evangelical Christian (athlete or sportscaster) and are very open about your faith, congratulations. That takes courage in this society. If If you're a professional athlete who comes out as gay, you're also courageous. Both people have the right to opine. That's a perfect example of equality that so many people dislike.

You lost me at the part I highlighted in bold. Anyone who uses phraseology the lines of 'homosexual agenda' quite clearly does not advance 'a perfect example of equality.'

Hows that?

He needs to read the New Testament again, then.
Some churches are totally accepting of gay people and we shouldn't lose time with misguided churches.