How forumites have evolved (or not) on equal marriage

[Antonio the Sixth]

Gay marriage is one of the least important big issues in American politics.

I actually agree with that.

[dead0man]

I've been pro-gay forever, I had a lesbian cousin when I was little (oddly enough, she's not a lesbian anymore).  I never had a fully formed opinion on gay marriage, didn't really care one way or the other.  I did argue that they should be happy with Civil Unions if they can get them.  I also recall making a big deal about not wanting a gay fellow to teach grade school aged children (this would have been the late 90s), but I realize that that was stupid a long time ago.

[minionofmidas]

That post is a satirical comment on the one above it. It caught my eye too...

I haven't evolved on this issue, I think. I've always been at give them full benefits / I don't care whether it's called marriage. All that's changed over the past twenty years is the viability of the proposition - but even when I first formed an opinion there were European countries that already recognized gay marriages even though it was still completely unthinkable here in Germany with Helmut Kohl at the helm.

Thinking about this... when I first formed an opinion (that was mostly "ah, look just how progressive it is possible for countries near us to be. Not ever happening in this f**ktard country") the option of not calling it marriage - what we eventually got/will get* here - would not have occurred to me, and thus that part is evidently of later age. How much later? I cannot say; I have no recollection. All this was fifteen to twenty years ago and not of personal relevance to me.

*we got civil unions that everybody calls marriage colloquially. They're not equal in benefits yet, but we're getting there. It is purely a matter of time by now, and probably not very much time. Life of the next Parliament. Yet because of the way events unfolded in this country, that is what we will get - we're not going to officially rename it marriage anytime soon.

[Swedish Rainbow Capitalist Cheese]

The first time I ever heard about the issue was when I was only seven, long before either my sexual or poitical awakening. My mother and grandmother were having a discussion about it. What I said then was that people should get to marry the persons they love.

So I can proudly say that it's one of my political views that has never needed to evolve.

Not that there's anything wrong with having gone through an evolution. BRTD's witch hunt on people like Ben is just silly. The important thing is where people end their journey, not where they start.

[Torie]

The first time I ever heard about the issue was when I was only seven, long before either my sexual or poitical awakening. My mother and grandmother were having a discussion about it. What I said then was that people should get to marry the persons they love.

So I can proudly say that it's one of my political views that has never needed to evolve.

Not that there's anything wrong with having gone through an evolution. BRTD's witch hunt on people like Ben is just silly. The important thing is where people end their journey, not where they start.

And the longer and more arduous the journey, the more one might commend the chap for his efforts.

[Holmes]

Have you documented this journey anywhere, Torie? I wouldn't mind reading it.

[Torie]

Have you documented this journey anywhere, Torie? I wouldn't mind reading it.

No, I was not referring to myself, as to supporting the gay marriage issue (I have been in favor of gay marriage since rocks cooled). If you mean coming to understand my sexuality, perhaps I could elaborate on that more if you wish. I would have to give some thought as to how to compose it. But for now, let me just say that I am relatively close to the borderline as to sexuality (or thought I was), as opposed to out on the tail of the bell curve. I also did not have the driving sex drive that I have now, after I got buffed and "hormoned" up, which made the matter more "pressing" as it were. It literally had a substantial impact on my personality.

Looking back with the self understanding that I have now, though, it does seem to me that I was gay from day one - from my very earliest childhood memories. It is kind of amazing isn't it, that no matter how smart and educated you are, on some things you have no understanding about yourself at all - perhaps because you just don't want to find out. I will have to ponder that.

Let me know if you would like a longer essay on all of this, Holmes. Thanks. I am flattered by your interest! 

[Sbane]

Guys, this is not solely about Ben's views on gay marriage, but his overall moderate hero political views. One would think he is running for President in 2016.

[Napoleon]

It is kind of amazing isn't it, that no matter how smart and educated you are, on some things you have no understanding about yourself at all - perhaps because you just don't want to find out. I will have to ponder that.

Or simply didn't need to find out. Excuse me for coming across as judgmental, but from how I've interpreted some of your posts over my time here, you seem to be very happy as a person and at peace with yourself. Perhaps I'm wrong, or maybe in the past you struggled with this more than any of us can tell, but it's not out of the realm of possibility.

[Franzl]

Guys, this is not solely about Ben's views on gay marriage, but his overall moderate hero political views. One would think he is running for President in 2016.

And you've made your point, why are you continuing to pursue the matter? It's very BRTD-like. Ben doesn't owe you a justificatication for his politics.

[Napoleon]

Gay marriage is one of the least important big issues in American politics.

I actually agree with that.

Its easy to agree with if you're heterosexual.

[Ebowed]

According to a post I found, I've supported full marriage equality since 2005 - but there will also be some posts from earlier in the year opposing that viewpoint.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Gay marriage is one of the least important big issues in American politics.

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[Ebowed]

Gay marriage is one of the least important big issues in American politics.

I actually agree with that.

Its easy to agree with if you're heterosexual.

From what I can tell, these posters approach the issue of equality through a mostly philosophical lens, appreciating the principle of the pro-marriage argument absent a great deal of personal interaction with the issue - so it is hardly surprising that they find discrimination in marriage law to be of little relevance.  At least they agree in spirit.

(Either that, or they do actually know people affected by this injustice, but rationalize their indifference with the understanding that it doesn't harm most of the population - but I would prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt.)

[Velasco]

Gay marriage is one of the least important big issues in American politics.

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Yes, that's explicit enough. Even when to some people same-sex marriage is not a matter of life and death, it has enough entity for anyone who believes in the equality of the individuals to the eyes of the law and similar trifles.

[Sbane]

Guys, this is not solely about Ben's views on gay marriage, but his overall moderate hero political views. One would think he is running for President in 2016.

And you've made your point, why are you continuing to pursue the matter? It's very BRTD-like. Ben doesn't owe you a justificatication for his politics.

Just pointing out this is about his seemingly contrived viewpoint on most things rather than just on gay marriage, as some people are implying. Of course things were much worse back in the day so the newer posters don't know what they are talking about.

In any case I don't really care much. I just don't get why people are congratulating a moderate hero for taking a moderate hero stance. I would save that for someone from a very conservative background like Bushie or an old like Clarence who has not seen gay marriage as an issue almost his whole life.

[Ebowed]

I just don't get why people are congratulating a moderate hero for taking a moderate hero stance.

Central to what I understand about the gay rights movement (and indeed, social justice movements in general) is that
a.) Everyone is welcome,
b.) It's never too late to stand for equality, even if everyone else has also started doing so.

[Sbane]

And people still focus on gay marriage. I give up.

[Ebowed]

And people still focus on gay marriage. I give up.

I think at this point it is fairly clear what guides his approach to political matters, so yes, the focus is on gay marriage - because rather than decry someone for taking the correct position due to perceived popularity of the stance, we simply embrace them for taking the correct position and hope that they may understand why it is correct.

[Sbane]

Fair enough. I just think people From the demographics of Bushie and Clarence deserve a lot more embracing. It is much, much tougher for them to embrace gay marriage.

[Torie]

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I have been very happy the past few years, and at peace with myself, as I embarked on my own little journey of discovery, with less pressure bearing down on me from my career. But before that, and even before coming here, I was always for some reason an equanimable poster, and seem to get along well with others, including those who disagreed with me. On the nets, I had very good diplomatic skills I think. But I was far more private than now, and not too happy with myself as a person in some respects. Now I just let it all hang out.   And I have always enjoyed being something of a teacher.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Excuse me if I think poverty, the unmaking of the Welfare State, massive tax evasion, the complete unfairness of the education, health care or judicial systems, the fate of undocumented immigrants, inequalities and discrimination of all sorts against all sorts of groups (including LGBT) to be more important that that single issue of marriage. How heartless I must be!

[Leftbehind]

Excuse me if I think poverty, the unmaking of the Welfare State, massive tax evasion, the complete unfairness of the education, health care or judicial systems, the fate of undocumented immigrants, inequalities and discrimination of all sorts against all sorts of groups (including LGBT) to be more important that that single issue of marriage. How heartless I must be!

But conservatives/liberals here are so much more progressive now because they passed gay marriage. About to crucify those that are dependent on benefits, for having the temerity to have an extra bedroom in their council houses, in a system they know won't work, but it saves money and the cruelty is justified through the reappearance of Victorian 'undeserving poor' prejudices. But still, gay marriage!

[Supersonic]

Excuse me if I think poverty, the unmaking of the Welfare State, massive tax evasion, the complete unfairness of the education, health care or judicial systems, the fate of undocumented immigrants, inequalities and discrimination of all sorts against all sorts of groups (including LGBT) to be more important that that single issue of marriage. How heartless I must be!

But conservatives/liberals here are so much more progressive now because they passed gay marriage. About to crucify those that are dependent on benefits, for having the temerity to have an extra bedroom in their council houses, in a system they know won't work, but it saves money and the cruelty is justified through the reprisal of Victorian 'undeserving poor' prejudices. But still, gay marriage!

All in one term too!

[Leftbehind]

All in one term too!

Had to be, you never stood a chance of being re-elected - you failed to get elected in the first place, beyond using unsuspecting Liberal voters to make your majority.

Meh, the more you drive us towards Victorian misery, the more likely we'll have radicalism.