Obama Prepares to Screw his Base

[Torie]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Yes, I am talking about you, you young studs. Per this screed, under Obamacare health insurance premiums  for youngs go up 169% (at least for some), and the premiums for me, a dessicated old, go down 25%, nice cross subsidy from the generally impecunious youngs to well, folks like me, who are neither young, nor in a state of penury.  Obama loves me.  Does he love you as much?

I have been saying this since rocks cooled, and ignored. Maybe I will be ignored less, when the premium bills start rolling in, and you guys have to start paying them. You will someday you know. You won't be under 26 forever.

[Sbane]

Because obviously we will never get old and stay forever young.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

...and youngs, more likely to be lower income, also get subsidized, so it probably ends up cheaper in the long run.

[Torie]

Because obviously we will never get old and stay forever young.

I just knew you would show up sbane.  And I am impressed that you have such a long time horizon, and are so patient. Well done sir!

You think this cross subsidy is good policy?

[Torie]

...and youngs, more likely to be lower income, also get subsidized, so it probably ends up cheaper in the long run.

How does that work exactly?  Got any numbers?

Let's see, my premiums go down 25%, while "it is cheaper in the long run" for youngs too. Fantastic. It's a free lunch - everybody wins!

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

well the actual numbers won't be out until 2014, but it's a well known fact that the bill subsidizes for it anyone who has difficulty paying their going rate.

[Torie]

well the actual numbers won't be out until 2014, but it's a well known fact that the bill subsidizes for it anyone who has difficulty paying their going rate.

The going rate for many youngs now is zero - they don't buy insurance. Why should they?  When you have a zero net worth, having insurance is just silly, isn't it?  But it is nice that the government will subsidize premiums for those who can't afford it, and subsidize olds who can as well, while all the while, Obamacare was supposed to save money. This puppy is a trifecta. Awesome!

Aren't you over 26 BRTD?  Let me know what happens to your premiums, won't you?

[Sbane]

Because obviously we will never get old and stay forever young.

I just knew you would show up sbane.   And I am impressed that you have such a long time horizon, and are so patient. Well done sir!

You think this cross subsidy is good policy?

Yes, for the most part, if the penalties in the individual mandate are able to force well off youngs to buy insurance policies. That is a huge if, of course. I think it is the right thing to do morally. It will make sick people more insurable on the individual market. A counterbalance to this, some means testing of Medicare, should also be instituted.

[Torie]

Sbane, I still don't quite get why youngs, just because they are young, should subsidize olds, just because they are old, as opposed to just means testing regardless of age. It seems nutter to me. I understand the politics (part of it being the youngs tend to be less informed about these things), but that does not make it right.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

well the actual numbers won't be out until 2014, but it's a well known fact that the bill subsidizes for it anyone who has difficulty paying their going rate.

The going rate for many youngs now is zero - they don't buy insurance. Why should they?  When you have a zero net worth, having insurance is just silly, isn't it?  But it is nice that the government will subsidize premiums for those who can't afford it, and subsidize olds who can as well, while all the while, Obamacare was supposed to save money. This puppy is a trifecta. Awesome!

Aren't you over 26 BRTD?  Let me know what happens to your premiums, won't you?

I dunno what the current price is, because I don't buy insurance now and don't need it.

[Sbane]

Sbane, I still don't quite get why youngs, just because they are young, should subsidize olds, just because they are old, as opposed to just means testing regardless of age. It seems nutter to me. I understand the politics (part of it being the youngs tend to be less informed about these things), but that does not make it right.

It makes sense to me because it's almost like you are paying into the system when you can most afford it (I would prefer it be a Bismarck system with a lot of the costs being paid through payroll taxes but that's teh socializm!! panic! panic! panic!), and reaping the benefits when you are older and could be ruined by health costs. Mind you that this is only going to be affecting health plans that cover a small number of people or individual plans. These cross subsidies are already in effect in many large company plans (group plans). So all this does is make it easier for older people to buy their own insurance or start their own companies when they are older.

[Sbane]

well the actual numbers won't be out until 2014, but it's a well known fact that the bill subsidizes for it anyone who has difficulty paying their going rate.

The going rate for many youngs now is zero - they don't buy insurance. Why should they?  When you have a zero net worth, having insurance is just silly, isn't it?  But it is nice that the government will subsidize premiums for those who can't afford it, and subsidize olds who can as well, while all the while, Obamacare was supposed to save money. This puppy is a trifecta. Awesome!

Aren't you over 26 BRTD?  Let me know what happens to your premiums, won't you?

I dunno what the current price is, because I don't buy insurance now and don't need it.

So what if you get into a car accident tomorrow and have 50k in hospital bills and subsequent physiotherapy? Do you have that sort of money lying around?

[Torie]

Sbane, I still don't quite get why youngs, just because they are young, should subsidize olds, just because they are old, as opposed to just means testing regardless of age. It seems nutter to me. I understand the politics (part of it being the youngs tend to be less informed about these things), but that does not make it right.

It makes sense to me because it's almost like you are paying into the system when you can most afford it (I would prefer it be a Bismarck system with a lot of the costs being paid through payroll taxes but that's teh socializm!! panic! panic! panic!), and reaping the benefits when you are older and could be ruined by health costs. Mind you that this is only going to be affecting health plans that cover a small number of people or individual plans. These cross subsidies are already in effect in many large company plans (group plans). So all this does is make it easier for older people to buy their own insurance or start their own companies when they are older.

Obamacare mandates higher cross subsidies based on age than the state mandates which ala CA mandate age cross subsidies lite.

It might be a fun poll: ask youngs if they prefer paying twice as much as they should now, if they can afford it, in exchange for paying 25% less when they hit age 55 or something.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

well the actual numbers won't be out until 2014, but it's a well known fact that the bill subsidizes for it anyone who has difficulty paying their going rate.

The going rate for many youngs now is zero - they don't buy insurance. Why should they?  When you have a zero net worth, having insurance is just silly, isn't it?  But it is nice that the government will subsidize premiums for those who can't afford it, and subsidize olds who can as well, while all the while, Obamacare was supposed to save money. This puppy is a trifecta. Awesome!

Aren't you over 26 BRTD?  Let me know what happens to your premiums, won't you?

I dunno what the current price is, because I don't buy insurance now and don't need it.

So what if you get into a car accident tomorrow and have 50k in hospital bills and subsequent physiotherapy? Do you have that sort of money lying around?

I have accident insurance (and critical illness insurance too.)

[Lief 🗽]

Ezra Klein has a good response to why this is way too simplistic, and there's a lot of redistribution on both sides of the age divide, as well as a number of other demographic divides: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/02/11/dont-worry-kids-obamacare-is-a-good-deal/

[Torie]

Ezra Klein has a good response to why this is way too simplistic, and there's a lot of redistribution on both sides of the age divide, as well as a number of other demographic divides: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/02/11/dont-worry-kids-obamacare-is-a-good-deal/

Sure there are offsets for some youngs, but that hardly justifies the age qua age discrimination. Thanks for putting the link up though. Klein is always worth reading.

[Sbane]

Sbane, I still don't quite get why youngs, just because they are young, should subsidize olds, just because they are old, as opposed to just means testing regardless of age. It seems nutter to me. I understand the politics (part of it being the youngs tend to be less informed about these things), but that does not make it right.

It makes sense to me because it's almost like you are paying into the system when you can most afford it (I would prefer it be a Bismarck system with a lot of the costs being paid through payroll taxes but that's teh socializm!! panic! panic! panic!), and reaping the benefits when you are older and could be ruined by health costs. Mind you that this is only going to be affecting health plans that cover a small number of people or individual plans. These cross subsidies are already in effect in many large company plans (group plans). So all this does is make it easier for older people to buy their own insurance or start their own companies when they are older.

It might be a fun poll: ask youngs if they prefer paying twice as much as they should now, if they can afford it, in exchange for paying 25% less when they hit age 55 or something.

Yes, it would be a fun poll, no doubt, but very irrelevant. A lot of those people already pay higher rates (but a lot of it is subsidized by their employer) because they are in a group plan. All this is doing is extending that principle on to individual and small group plans.

Unless you are a young lawyer, or in some other profession where you aren't working for a large corporation, there isn't much of a reason to care about this. Unless you don't buy health insurance that is. Even there, buying high deductible plans is the way to go. Unfortunately, Obamacare restricted that. Let's have a little outrage about that, why don't we?

Also, as pointed out by Ezra Klein, something that hasn't been publicized so much is that Obamacare raises taxes on those making 250k+. Those making that much money tend to be old so there's at least some means testing in the bill.

[Torie]

Again the age discrimination in group plans is a state generated rule where it exists, and is far more muted than what is in Obamacare. So while the principle is the same, the magnitude is not. Magnitude matters.  I mean, I favor progressive taxation just like you do, but we still argue some about the magnitude of the "progressivity" (among other things) don't we? 

[Sbane]

Again the age discrimination in group plans is a state generated rule where it exists, and is far more muted than what is in Obamacare. So while the principle is the same, the magnitude is not. Magnitude matters.  I mean, I favor progressive taxation just like you do, but we still argue some about the magnitude of the "progressivity" (among other things) don't we? 

I am not aware of employers charging you a different premium based on your age. Does this actually happen?

[memphis]

well the actual numbers won't be out until 2014, but it's a well known fact that the bill subsidizes for it anyone who has difficulty paying their going rate.

The going rate for many youngs now is zero - they don't buy insurance. Why should they?  When you have a zero net worth, having insurance is just silly, isn't it?

I have a good friend who had the same attitude. And then severe asthma put him in the ICU for a while. And now he has $50,000 in medical bills. So he can either file bankruptcy and spend many years in financial purgatory or work out a settlement and spend fewer years in limbo but have to live off the kindness of strangers.  Genius plan, Torie!

[Torie]

Again the age discrimination in group plans is a state generated rule where it exists, and is far more muted than what is in Obamacare. So while the principle is the same, the magnitude is not. Magnitude matters.  I mean, I favor progressive taxation just like you do, but we still argue some about the magnitude of the "progressivity" (among other things) don't we? 

I am not aware of employers charging you a different premium based on your age. Does this actually happen?

No, but the rates that the carriers charge based on those in the plan are state regulated, and mandate age discrimination, albeit as I said, at a lower level than Obamacare. The youngs in essence are subsidizing in particular uninsured olds, so they can get insurance at lower rates than otherwise.

[Torie]

well the actual numbers won't be out until 2014, but it's a well known fact that the bill subsidizes for it anyone who has difficulty paying their going rate.

The going rate for many youngs now is zero - they don't buy insurance. Why should they?  When you have a zero net worth, having insurance is just silly, isn't it?

I have a good friend who had the same attitude. And then severe asthma put him in the ICU for a while. And now he has $50,000 in medical bills. So he can either file bankruptcy and spend many years in financial purgatory or work out a settlement and spend fewer years in limbo but have to live off the kindness of strangers.  Genius plan, Torie!

BK is the ticket of course. It will cost about 5K to effect. So he gets a 90% discount as it were per your hypo.

[memphis]

well the actual numbers won't be out until 2014, but it's a well known fact that the bill subsidizes for it anyone who has difficulty paying their going rate.

The going rate for many youngs now is zero - they don't buy insurance. Why should they?  When you have a zero net worth, having insurance is just silly, isn't it?

I have a good friend who had the same attitude. And then severe asthma put him in the ICU for a while. And now he has $50,000 in medical bills. So he can either file bankruptcy and spend many years in financial purgatory or work out a settlement and spend fewer years in limbo but have to live off the kindness of strangers.  Genius plan, Torie!

BK is the ticket of course. It will cost about 5K to effect. So he gets a 90% discount as it were per your hypo.

You think there is no cost to having your credit ripped to shreds? You think everybody else doesn't have to pay for that through higher premiums? Whatever happenned to the GOP believing in "personal responsibility?"  Why should the uninsured get a free ride and distort the system?

[King]

27 and under?   Shouldn't they still be on their parent's coverage until age 26?  So, even if true, this only effects you for one year?  Who cares?

[memphis]

The idea of young people as Obama's base is also patently absurd. Very few turnout and those that do vote just slightly more Dem than everybody else. Is Bucks County, PA Obama's base too? Ethnic/racial minorities are Obama's base. And the GOP is furious about it.