So Thatcher had a lot more evil in her than the infamous poll tax...

[Swedish Rainbow Capitalist Cheese]

Is this the mirror image of the Chavez thread?  It's ok to be "satisfied" with the death of a politician if you disagree with them....except when it's not.

There's very strong bipartisan support for hypochracy.

[MaxQue]

There was fires of joy in some areas of Quebec when Prime Minister of Quebec Maurice Duplessis died in office, I heard.

The fact that his death was effectively the only way to get rid of him kind of justified it...

Most historians estimed than he had more than 50% odds of losing at the next election. The system was beginning to crumble during his last term. It only accelerated things.

[Antonio the Sixth]

There was fires of joy in some areas of Quebec when Prime Minister of Quebec Maurice Duplessis died in office, I heard.

The fact that his death was effectively the only way to get rid of him kind of justified it...

Most historians estimed than he had more than 50% odds of losing at the next election. The system was beginning to crumble during his last term. It only accelerated things.

Ah, I stand corrected.

Still, dying in office is not the same as dying 20-30 years after losing power.

[Leftbehind]

So in return all those people that hate Obama and want him to die (Note: I'm not one of them, but I'm sure someone will still think so) are perfectly justified in that respect? My guess is they'd be viewed as horrible people while these people are within their rights.

IMO, any grown person who wishes early death on a politician operating within a free, civilised, democratic system is an inherently cruel and vile person, it doesn't matter if it's Maggie Thatcher or Barry Obama or Olof Palm or anyone.
It's only acceptable to hate politicians in totalitarian regimes, in my view.

I completely agree.

...and when she buddies upto said dictators - especially one so murderous as Pinochet? Which ever way you look at it, she was a vile woman and like most of my town I just wish her death was much sooner.

[minionofmidas]

It's not surprising that there are vast segments of the British population eagerly awaiting this horrible woman's death.

Oh don't be ridiculous.

As she won't be publicly executed and anyways her brain is pretty much dead already, nobody cares and nobody has any reason to.

[freefair]

...and when she buddies upto said dictators - especially one so murderous as Pinochet? Which ever way you look at it, she was a vile woman and like most of my town I just wish her death was much sooner.

If Olaf Palme's support and covert funding of terror groups and support for "anti-Imperialists" such as Ho Chi Minh, Fidel Castro and Pol Pot was acceptable, then so is dealing with people like Pinochet and Botha.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

That's like saying "If Stalin's Gulags and Great Purges were acceptable, then so was the Holocaust." It's not just a logical fallacy the initial premise is rather absurd to begin with.

[freefair]

That's like saying "If Stalin's Gulags and Great Purges were acceptable, then so was the Holocaust." It's not just a logical fallacy the initial premise is rather absurd to begin with.

I agree it would be double standards not to see either as being acceptable or unacceptable. That's my point. If both are unnacceptable, that makes Palme just as bad.
And yes, it's true that to defend the Gulags you have to defend the Holocaust.

[Swedish Rainbow Capitalist Cheese]

No one in this thread has said that Palme's bad actions is somehow good while Thatcher's were not. So I don't see how he is relevant to this discussion.

Anyway there's an intresting discussion about the similarities between Palme and Thatcher. Palme like Thatcher was a very comlex politican and similarly radicalised his party, transformed his country beond recongnistion, and in the process made himself hated by large segments of the population while being admired as a hero by others. But that's not the topic of this thread.  

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Is this the mirror image of the Chavez thread?  It's ok to be "satisfied" with the death of a politician if you disagree with them....except when it's not.

It is not a question of 'disagreement'. To repeat, Thatcher defined large sections of British society as her personal enemies and shaped government policy accordingly. Worse, she didn't even bother to disguise that fact. This is not something that normally happens in democracies. Normal rules of behavior don't exactly apply. Again, I don't deny that it's ugly, but British politics in the 1980s was ugly, and its legacy is ugly. There's no point in pretending otherwise; it never comes across as anything other than false.

Feel free to feel as disgusted as you feel, just don't pretend that this is a 'normal' situation.

[afleitch]

Is this the mirror image of the Chavez thread?  It's ok to be "satisfied" with the death of a politician if you disagree with them....except when it's not.

It is not a question of 'disagreement'. To repeat, Thatcher defined large sections of British society as her personal enemies and shaped government policy accordingly. Worse, she didn't even bother to disguise that fact. This is not something that normally happens in democracies. Normal rules of behavior don't exactly apply. Again, I don't deny that it's ugly, but British politics in the 1980s was ugly, and its legacy is ugly. There's no point in pretending otherwise; it never comes across as anything other than false.

Feel free to feel as disgusted as you feel, just don't pretend that this is a 'normal' situation.

But it didn't really effect you or I did it? I can respect, even if I don't agree with the routine vilification or hero worship of Thatcher amongst those who lived and worked and raised families at that time. My late papa hated Thatcher but curiously hated Ramsay Macdonald even more and that used to fall on deaf ears. I don't think we can invest any emotional interest in that era because we were just children, for much the same reason as my mum didn't give two hoots about Macdonald. What I find sinister is that people even younger than I am learn to hate her or like her and roll off 'things wot she dun' as if it had anything to do with them.

[freefair]

What I find sinister is that people even younger than I am learn to hate her or like her and roll off 'things wot she dun' as if it had anything to do with them.

I think there should be a Modern British History GCSE . It should contain a section on the Thatcher/Major era that should provide a genuinely balanced set of arguments and policy details. People should be  given an opportunity to make their own minds up.
My Ideal structure should be
1914 Britain and Empire, WW1, Interwar, WW2, Postwar, 60s and 70s, 80s and 90s, 21st century.
It does raise a question among these people- If all she did was so evil, why won't anyone try reversing it??
Peter Hitchens, and I know he'd not popular here, he made the point that much collectivist disdain for the 80's has an underlying root cause of the UK becoming a colder and selfish nation during the 80's, which he feels was a delayed consequence of late 60s social liberalism rather than economic neoliberalism.
As to the point, I'm fairly sure Thatcher may have, in the very  very long term, wished for some of this paper to come true, however in the short term she saw it as excessive, impractical and too extreme.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

We're all shaped by things that happened when we were children. I'm tempted to think that the first ten, maybe twelve, of someone's life is the most important in shaping who (and what) they are. My Grandad always had a special loathing for Churchill because of the return to the Gold Standard in 1925 and the resulting impoverishment of most of the Durham coalfield, his family included; he was very young at the time.

Anyway, emotional reactions to things we don't personally remember are also quite common and don't have all that much to do with how close the event was to the present; the same teenagers who have very fixed opinions of Thatcher and Thatcherism probably draw a blank at a photo of John Major. I suspect that the intensity of feeling about Thatcher will start to die down after she's dead.

[countydurhamboy]

Coming from what was once the industrial heartland of Britain, it is hard to understate the hatred felt by many towards Thatcher.

She has become a figure of folk law, the 20th century sheriff of Nottingham. While it undeniable that she destroyed the livelihoods of many honest, decent, working class people; it must also be she is not to blame for everything that is wrong with Britain.

What I find sinister is that people even younger than I am learn to hate her or like her and roll off 'things wot she dun' as if it had anything to do with them.

I completely agree. It is amazing with what hatred my friends have for her.  None of them were even born when she left office and to be honest, they don't  know hardly anything about her or her policies. It doesn't stop them talking about looking forward to her death and partying on her grave. I find the whole thing sickening. 

[afleitch]

We're all shaped by things that happened when we were children. I'm tempted to think that the first ten, maybe twelve, of someone's life is the most important in shaping who (and what) they are. My Grandad always had a special loathing for Churchill because of the return to the Gold Standard in 1925 and the resulting impoverishment of most of the Durham coalfield, his family included; he was very young at the time.

Anyway, emotional reactions to things we don't personally remember are also quite common and don't have all that much to do with how close the event was to the present; the same teenagers who have very fixed opinions of Thatcher and Thatcherism probably draw a blank at a photo of John Major. I suspect that the intensity of feeling about Thatcher will start to die down after she's dead.

Even then, for me Thatcher was out of office when I was 6 (and my memories of times before that are sparse) so I can't really hold her responsible. For my older brothers though I agree they have more reason to hold opinions on her. Given that the British economy had it's longest period of growth from 1993 to 2007 that's probably the biggest influence on my own world view; to be promised the world and be thrown into the workplace at the time when it all came crashing down. That's why I have a particular hatred for Gordon Brown However I would be annoyed if Michael and Andrew junior in 20 years time simply copied that dislike.

I certainly think Thatcher's death will be momentous and should help dissipate irrational feelings on her. These releases under the 30 year rule also help and hinder; we now know the truth about the 'milk snatcher. We now know about the Falklands. The Miners Strike stuff should be interesting in the next few years.

[opebo]

It is not a question of 'disagreement'. To repeat, Thatcher defined large sections of British society as her personal enemies and shaped government policy accordingly. Worse, she didn't even bother to disguise that fact. This is not something that normally happens in democracies. Normal rules of behavior don't exactly apply. Again, I don't deny that it's ugly, but British politics in the 1980s was ugly, and its legacy is ugly. There's no point in pretending otherwise; it never comes across as anything other than false.

Feel free to feel as disgusted as you feel, just don't pretend that this is a 'normal' situation.

But it didn't really effect you or I did it? I can respect, even if I don't agree with the routine vilification or hero worship of Thatcher amongst those who lived and worked and raised families at that time. My late papa hated Thatcher but curiously hated Ramsay Macdonald even more and that used to fall on deaf ears. I don't think we can invest any emotional interest in that era because we were just children, for much the same reason as my mum didn't give two hoots about Macdonald. What I find sinister is that people even younger than I am learn to hate her or like her and roll off 'things wot she dun' as if it had anything to do with them.

You have no sense of history - poors are poor because of what happened previously - it isn't like the whole class of poors is just renewed like mushrooms from the ground with ever generation.  The fact that current poors parents were destroyed by Thatcher has made their lives worse (though no doubt nowhere near as bad as she apparently intended to make them, since finally she was not able to fully americanize britain).  Not to mention the new Britain doesn't have any jobs, directly due to Thatcher.

[You kip if you want to...]

Is this the mirror image of the Chavez thread?  It's ok to be "satisfied" with the death of a politician if you disagree with them....except when it's not.

It is not a question of 'disagreement'. To repeat, Thatcher defined large sections of British society as her personal enemies and shaped government policy accordingly. Worse, she didn't even bother to disguise that fact. This is not something that normally happens in democracies. Normal rules of behavior don't exactly apply. Again, I don't deny that it's ugly, but British politics in the 1980s was ugly, and its legacy is ugly. There's no point in pretending otherwise; it never comes across as anything other than false.

Feel free to feel as disgusted as you feel, just don't pretend that this is a 'normal' situation.

But it didn't really effect you or I did it? I can respect, even if I don't agree with the routine vilification or hero worship of Thatcher amongst those who lived and worked and raised families at that time. My late papa hated Thatcher but curiously hated Ramsay Macdonald even more and that used to fall on deaf ears. I don't think we can invest any emotional interest in that era because we were just children, for much the same reason as my mum didn't give two hoots about Macdonald. What I find sinister is that people even younger than I am learn to hate her or like her and roll off 'things wot she dun' as if it had anything to do with them.

Events in the previous generation have no effect on anything that happens to that generation's offspring, clearly.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

I guess there's a sense of mourning now that she's been released from the hospital?

[Oldiesfreak1854]

Oh, come on.  Thatcher was a great PM, and even if that's true, that's extreme even for me as a conservative.  I have no problem with welfare as long as it makes people independent rather than dependent.

[Silent Hunter]

Oh, come on.  Thatcher was a great PM, and even if that's true, that's extreme even for me as a conservative.  I have no problem with welfare as long as it makes people independent rather than dependent.

If you don't want people to be dependent on charity or government to survive, create jobs instead of lower taxes for the highest earners.

[Simfan34]

Is this the mirror image of the Chavez thread?  It's ok to be "satisfied" with the death of a politician if you disagree with them....except when it's not.

There's very strong bipartisan support for hypochracy.

Not really, just the hypocrisy of this site's leading left-wingers.

[Oldiesfreak1854]

Oh, come on.  Thatcher was a great PM, and even if that's true, that's extreme even for me as a conservative.  I have no problem with welfare as long as it makes people independent rather than dependent.

If you don't want people to be dependent on charity or government to survive, create jobs instead of lower taxes for the highest earners.

Lower taxes for the highest earners is the best thing to create jobs because they are then more likely to hire and invest.

[freefair]

Oh, come on.  Thatcher was a great PM, and even if that's true, that's extreme even for me as a conservative.  I have no problem with welfare as long as it makes people independent rather than dependent.

If you don't want people to be dependent on charity or government to survive, create jobs instead of lower taxes for the highest earners.

Lower taxes for the highest earners is the best thing to create jobs because they are then more likely to hire and invest.

Obviously not too low though, then you'd fall off the peak laffer curve point... but yeah, TOO high tax rates do as much to destroy economic wealth as to redistribute it...
Personally I don't have too much of a problem with 35 to 55% top tax rates, above or below that you've gone too far either way.

[Oldiesfreak1854]

Why does any of this matter?  Thatcher is long gone from public life, and those Conservatives are (or would be) Labourites now.