MA: Re-Establishment of a Lieutenant Governor Amendment (Debating)

[tmthforu94]

If we wanted to bring something unique to the region, I think a ticket would be better than separate elections - it encourages a more...efficient government. I also think it is important that if we do stick with separate, they are held together, that way we can promote a little bit more stability in the game. I understand it's an opportunity to make the off-elections more competitive, but eye, you win some, you lose some.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

I strongly, strongly oppose having them run on a ticket.  It would rob the Lieutenant Governorship of its independence.

[Talleyrand]

How about we settle on one of the two following options as a compromise? If they're not acceptable, at the very least they'll spur debate.

1. The Governor and Lieutenant Governor run on a ticket, but in this scenario the LG gets joint appointments rights to the Assembly, Senate, and Judiciary.

2. The Governor and Lieutenant Governor run separately, but the Governor retains exclusive appointment rights to the Assembly, although the Judiciary and/or Senate become joint appointments.

I like the 2nd one in particular, but the 1st isn't bad either, IMO.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

How about we settle on one of the two following options as a compromise? If they're not acceptable, at the very least they'll spur debate.

1. The Governor and Lieutenant Governor run on a ticket, but in this scenario the LG gets joint appointments rights to the Assembly, Senate, and Judiciary.

2. The Governor and Lieutenant Governor run separately, but the Governor retains exclusive appointment rights to the Assembly, although the Judiciary and/or Senate become joint appointments.

I like the 2nd one in particular, but the 1st isn't bad either, IMO.

Number one is a non-starter for me.  I don't see any reason that they can't run separately and make joint Assembly appointments.

[tmthforu94]

Especially if the Lt. Governor has such a heavy role in the Assembly, I don't think they should have joint appointments - that is never done in the real world, and I don't see why it is so important that it is done here. Perhaps just a clause stating that the Lt. Governor makes the recommendation to the Governor, but must meet his approval in order to advance? What if the two can't decide on an appointment???

 I also think that tickets would certainly bring an interesting dynamic to the game without really potentially creating uncontested elections. It also promotes a more functional and unified government. Also, Mr. X, please expand on what you mean on how tickets "rob them of their independence." If they have that "independent quality", the Governor will probably be aware of that when they select them. And it's not like they can just be fired if the Governor doesn't like their "independence". If anything, it might just create a tense government, which could also easily happen in separate elections where two unlike individuals (say drj and jcl) are elected.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Especially if the Lt. Governor has such a heavy role in the Assembly, I don't think they should have joint appointments - that is never done in the real world, and I don't see why it is so important that it is done here. Perhaps just a clause stating that the Lt. Governor makes the recommendation to the Governor, but must meet his approval in order to advance? What if the two can't decide on an appointment???

 I also think that tickets would certainly bring an interesting dynamic to the game without really potentially creating uncontested elections. It also promotes a more functional and unified government. Also, Mr. X, please expand on what you mean on how tickets "rob them of their independence." If they have that "independent quality", the Governor will probably be aware of that when they select them. And it's not like they can just be fired if the Governor doesn't like their "independence". If anything, it might just create a tense government, which could also easily happen in separate elections where two unlike individuals (say drj and jcl) are elected.

My worry is that a future Governor might only pick a Lieutenant Governor who to run with them who shares their views on almost everything.  Your second point is fair though and in light of it, I suppose I could live with the first option as well.

[tmthforu94]

Especially if the Lt. Governor has such a heavy role in the Assembly, I don't think they should have joint appointments - that is never done in the real world, and I don't see why it is so important that it is done here. Perhaps just a clause stating that the Lt. Governor makes the recommendation to the Governor, but must meet his approval in order to advance? What if the two can't decide on an appointment???

 I also think that tickets would certainly bring an interesting dynamic to the game without really potentially creating uncontested elections. It also promotes a more functional and unified government. Also, Mr. X, please expand on what you mean on how tickets "rob them of their independence." If they have that "independent quality", the Governor will probably be aware of that when they select them. And it's not like they can just be fired if the Governor doesn't like their "independence". If anything, it might just create a tense government, which could also easily happen in separate elections where two unlike individuals (say drj and jcl) are elected.

My worry is that a future Governor might only pick a Lieutenant Governor who to run with them who shares their views on almost everything.  Your second point is fair though and in light of it, I suppose I could live with the first option as well.

I'm sure that is a possibility, Mr. X. But considering that the same voting pool will be voting for both spots, I would say that there would be a decent chance anyways that two individuals of a similar ideology will get elected.

I still am very leery on joint appointments - I must ask again, what if the two can't decide on an appointment? At least the chances of that happening would be less likely if they were on a ticket together.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Especially if the Lt. Governor has such a heavy role in the Assembly, I don't think they should have joint appointments - that is never done in the real world, and I don't see why it is so important that it is done here. Perhaps just a clause stating that the Lt. Governor makes the recommendation to the Governor, but must meet his approval in order to advance? What if the two can't decide on an appointment???

 I also think that tickets would certainly bring an interesting dynamic to the game without really potentially creating uncontested elections. It also promotes a more functional and unified government. Also, Mr. X, please expand on what you mean on how tickets "rob them of their independence." If they have that "independent quality", the Governor will probably be aware of that when they select them. And it's not like they can just be fired if the Governor doesn't like their "independence". If anything, it might just create a tense government, which could also easily happen in separate elections where two unlike individuals (say drj and jcl) are elected.

My worry is that a future Governor might only pick a Lieutenant Governor who to run with them who shares their views on almost everything.  Your second point is fair though and in light of it, I suppose I could live with the first option as well.

I'm sure that is a possibility, Mr. X. But considering that the same voting pool will be voting for both spots, I would say that there would be a decent chance anyways that two individuals of a similar ideology will get elected.

I still am very leery on joint appointments - I must ask again, what if the two can't decide on an appointment? At least the chances of that happening would be less likely if they were on a ticket together.

That is a very legitimate concern, which is why I said that I am no longer oppose to the idea of both candidates running on the same ticket.

[tmthforu94]

Okay, here's an amendment. Just as a note, we're also going to need to amend in some of the currently debated amendments should they pass, so we need to make sure a final vote isn't started on this without it.

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Article I, Section 3 of the Mideast Constitution is hereby amended to read:

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Article I, Section 4 of the Mideast Constitution is hereby amended to read:

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Article II, Section 2 of the Mideast Constitution is hereby amended to read:

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Article III, Section 1 of the Mideast Constitution is hereby amended to read:

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Article III, Section 2 of the Mideast Constitution is hereby amended to read:

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Article IV, Section 1 of the Mideast Constitution is hereby amended to read:

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Article VI, Section 1 of the Mideast Constitution is hereby amended to read:

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All subsections of the Mideast Constitution (i.e. Part 1 of Article III, Section 5) not modified by this Act shall remain intact. [/quote]

[tmthforu94]

What this amendment does (for those who don't want to read through it):
1. Establishes joint tickets.
2. Gives the Lt. Governor responsibility over the Wiki. Before they took over if the Governor wasn't updating it. Now, they're both responsible, and if it isn't done, the Speaker takes over.
3. Gives the Lt. Governor joint power with the Lt. Governor on Assembly appointments.
4. Restores power to appoint judge to the Governor (remember, it still requires Assembly approval)

I am ceding some ground on this, as I'm not particularly in favor of joint appointments for anything as I find them to be somewhat tricky, but I'd be more apt to it with tickets.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

I strongly support this amendment!  At this point, I think it is definitely the best shot, if not the only shot, of establishing a strong Lieutenant Governor's office.

[tmthforu94]

Also, I'm not trying to suggest anything by saying this, but while one side does have the numbers to easily pass whatever they want here, Constitutional amendments do require 2/3s support, so we'll probably need both sides in agreement if we want to pass this.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Also, I'm not trying to suggest anything by saying this, but while one side does have the numbers to easily pass whatever they want here, Constitutional amendments do require 2/3s support, so we'll probably need both sides in agreement if we want to pass this.

This is definitely a legitimate point and I'll take getting 70% of what I want over 0% any day!

[Talleyrand]

I'm fine with this amendment, but how do we deal with the Lieutenant Governor if he fails to update the wiki as required, Governor?

[tmthforu94]

I'm fine with this amendment, but how do we deal with the Lieutenant Governor if he fails to update the wiki as required, Governor?

Good question - should we amend it to say that the Speaker will assume the responsibilities of both?

[Gass3268]

I don't think I can support this as long as it's a joint ticket. I would prefer for the Lieutenant Governor to be elected during the regions midterm elections in order to guarantee an independence of the new office.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

I don't think I can support this as long as it's a joint ticket. I would prefer for the Lieutenant Governor to be elected during the regions midterm elections in order to guarantee an independence of the new office.

I was strongly in this camp, but Governor Tmthforu94 raised an important point.  What if you have two people who can't agree on an appointment?  Also, I suspect there will be a number of unity tickets if this passes, tbh (which is fine by me ).

[Gass3268]

I don't think I can support this as long as it's a joint ticket. I would prefer for the Lieutenant Governor to be elected during the regions midterm elections in order to guarantee an independence of the new office.

I was strongly in this camp, but Governor Tmthforu94 raised an important point.  What if you have two people who can't agree on an appointment?  Also, I suspect there will be a number of unity tickets if this passes, tbh (which is fine by me ).

If the two people don't agree you could break the tie with:
- The choice of the Speaker of the Assembly
- Vote of the Assembly
- Region Referendum

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

I don't think I can support this as long as it's a joint ticket. I would prefer for the Lieutenant Governor to be elected during the regions midterm elections in order to guarantee an independence of the new office.

I was strongly in this camp, but Governor Tmthforu94 raised an important point.  What if you have two people who can't agree on an appointment?  Also, I suspect there will be a number of unity tickets if this passes, tbh (which is fine by me ).

If the two people don't agree you could break the tie with:
- The choice of the Speaker of the Assembly
- Vote of the Assembly
- Region Referendum

Remember this needs two-thirds support to get through.  That made it necessary to make some concessions to Governor Tmthforu94.  It will likely fail without his support.

[tmthforu94]

I think having the Lt. Governor elections during midterms would be disastrous as there would always be transitioning power in the executive branch, while more stability is needed. I also like the idea of having members of the executive branch working well together, and I think things wouldn't get done as well with two very different individuals in there.

[Talleyrand]

I don't think I can support this as long as it's a joint ticket. I would prefer for the Lieutenant Governor to be elected during the regions midterm elections in order to guarantee an independence of the new office.

I was strongly in this camp, but Governor Tmthforu94 raised an important point.  What if you have two people who can't agree on an appointment?  Also, I suspect there will be a number of unity tickets if this passes, tbh (which is fine by me ).

If the two people don't agree you could break the tie with:
- The choice of the Speaker of the Assembly
- Vote of the Assembly
- Region Referendum

I like the idea of giving the choice to the Speaker of the Assembly in that case rather than the Vote of the Assembly since we recently rejected a bill doing something very similar to that and a regional referendum seems to be too much for something like a single Assembly appointment unless we did something like the Northeast does.

[tmthforu94]

Not for Assembly appointments, though - the Speaker shouldn't be appointing members to his own body.

[Talleyrand]

Not for Assembly appointments, though - the Speaker shouldn't be appointing members to his own body.

For the Assembly appointment, who could break it then? Maybe the Judge would choose the one he deemed to be more qualified, and then issue a full explanation of his decision?

[Gass3268]

Not for Assembly appointments, though - the Speaker shouldn't be appointing members to his own body.

For the Assembly appointment, who could break it then? Maybe the Judge would choose the one he deemed to be more qualified, and then issue a full explanation of his decision?

I would be okay with the Superior Court Judge breaking the tie for Assembly appointment.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Not for Assembly appointments, though - the Speaker shouldn't be appointing members to his own body.

For the Assembly appointment, who could break it then? Maybe the Judge would choose the one he deemed to be more qualified, and then issue a full explanation of his decision?

I would be okay with the Superior Court Judge breaking the tie for Assembly appointment.

I disagree.  The judge shouldn't be involved in such politically-motivated decisions.