MA: Re-Establishment of a Lieutenant Governor Amendment (Debating)

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

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Article I, Section 4 of the Mideast Constitution is hereby amended to read:

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Article I of the Mideast Constitution is hereby amended to include the subsequent Section 5, Section 6, and Section 7:

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Article II, Section 2 of the Mideast Constitution is hereby amended to read:

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Article III, Section 1 of the Mideast Constitution is hereby amended to read:

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Article III, Section 2 of the Mideast Constitution is hereby amended to read:

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Article IV, Section 1 of the Mideast Constitution is hereby amended to read:

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Article VI, Section 1 of the Mideast Constitution is hereby amended to read:

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All subsections of the Mideast Constitution (i.e. Part 1 of Article III, Section 5) not modified by this Act shall remain intact. [/quote]
Sponsor: TexasDem
Co-Sponsor: Mr. X

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

This amendment has some things I take major issue with... specifically allowing the Lt. Governor to have the ability to make appointments to the Assembly as well as propose legislation.

Additionally, this changes a few things that have just been changed via other amendments.  My recommendation is to hold off on this for a bit until we see what all passes votes of the people.

[Talleyrand]

This amendment has some things I take major issue with... specifically allowing the Lt. Governor to have the ability to make appointments to the Assembly as well as propose legislation.

Additionally, this changes a few things that have just been changed via other amendments.  My recommendation is to hold off on this for a bit until we see what all passes votes of the people.

The reason I think a hypothetical LG should have those powers is because I don't want it to be a token position and I'd prefer if it had some more substantial powers. But this is an early draft and there will undoubtedly be changes.

What amendments are we waiting for a vote on? The Vacancy one and what else?

Also, there are two things that I've been thinking about.

-Is it better to have elections simultaneously alongside Gubernatorial elections or with off-month Assembly elections? The reasoning for having it with off-month Assembly elections would to be to boost activity in those votes and have a statewide executive election every two months. The argument to have it simultaneously with gubernatorial elections is that an LG would be likely to run for Governor, and there could be a lot of vacancies in the position halfway through the term.

-What's the best option for Assembly vacancies? Gubernatorial appointment, Lieutenant Gubernatorial appointment, or joint appointment (my preferred option)? Or something else?

[Gass3268]

I like this bill as I think it would allow for more activity in the region. My only recommendation is that the Assembly Vacancies be dealt with in the same was as appointments to the superior court. 

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

This amendment has some things I take major issue with... specifically allowing the Lt. Governor to have the ability to make appointments to the Assembly as well as propose legislation.

Additionally, this changes a few things that have just been changed via other amendments.  My recommendation is to hold off on this for a bit until we see what all passes votes of the people.

The reason I think a hypothetical LG should have those powers is because I don't want it to be a token position and I'd prefer if it had some more substantial powers. But this is an early draft and there will undoubtedly be changes.

What amendments are we waiting for a vote on? The Vacancy one and what else?

Also, there are two things that I've been thinking about.

-Is it better to have elections simultaneously alongside Gubernatorial elections or with off-month Assembly elections? The reasoning for having it with off-month Assembly elections would to be to boost activity in those votes and have a statewide executive election every two months. The argument to have it simultaneously with gubernatorial elections is that an LG would be likely to run for Governor, and there could be a lot of vacancies in the position halfway through the term.

-What's the best option for Assembly vacancies? Gubernatorial appointment, Lieutenant Gubernatorial appointment, or joint appointment (my preferred option)? Or something else?

Joint appointment is definitely the best option for Assembly vacancies, imo (i.e. both have to agree to the appointment).  I think the elections should be with off-month Assembly elections.

[tmthforu94]

It makes the most sense to have the elections concurrent to the Assembly elections, as it guarantees  a better working relationship as they'll be in during the same time. Also, many Lt. Governors will probably ascend to the Governorship, which is going to create a lot of special elections.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

As it answers my questions regarding judical competencies, I could see supporting this.

[Kitteh]

I agree with the ideas of joint appointment and holding Lt Gov elections at the same time as off-month assembly elections.

Also, if anyone doubts whether this is necessary, just look at the number of candidates running in the upcoming assembly elections. We clearly have a lot of activity in this region, which is great.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

I don't see why the Assembly should have the power to approve the Lt. Governor.

[Talleyrand]

I don't see why the Assembly should have the power to approve the Lt. Governor.

It's the same process to approve a Regional Senator in case of vacancy.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

I don't see why the Assembly should have the power to approve the Lt. Governor.

It's the same process to approve a Regional Senator in case of vacancy.

Which is a legislative branch position to the federal government, not the executive branch.  Can anyone name a single U.S. state that does something like that?

[Talleyrand]

I don't see why the Assembly should have the power to approve the Lt. Governor.

It's the same process to approve a Regional Senator in case of vacancy.

Which is a legislative branch position to the federal government, not the executive branch.  Can anyone name a single U.S. state that does something like that?

Wisconsin. And it doesn't really matter to me whether any U.S. state does so or not. No state requires legislative approval for appointees to the Senate, so under your reasoning, that should be eliminated too.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

I don't see why the Assembly should have the power to approve the Lt. Governor.

It's the same process to approve a Regional Senator in case of vacancy.

Which is a legislative branch position to the federal government, not the executive branch.  Can anyone name a single U.S. state that does something like that?

Wisconsin. And it doesn't really matter to me whether any U.S. state does so or not. No state requires legislative approval for appointees to the Senate, so under your reasoning, that should be eliminated too.

No, but at one point legislatures controlled Senate nominees.  That actually makes sense.  This doesn't.  Why should the legislature have that control?  Especially when the Lt. Governor has some control over the Assembly.  It doesn't make sense to have an Assembly who has control over a LG who has control over the Assembly... that's not checks and balances - that's circular power that could be abused.

[Talleyrand]

I don't see why the Assembly should have the power to approve the Lt. Governor.

It's the same process to approve a Regional Senator in case of vacancy.

Which is a legislative branch position to the federal government, not the executive branch.  Can anyone name a single U.S. state that does something like that?

Wisconsin. And it doesn't really matter to me whether any U.S. state does so or not. No state requires legislative approval for appointees to the Senate, so under your reasoning, that should be eliminated too.

No, but at one point legislatures controlled Senate nominees.  That actually makes sense.  This doesn't.  Why should the legislature have that control?  Especially when the Lt. Governor has some control over the Assembly.  It doesn't make sense to have an Assembly who has control over a LG who has control over the Assembly... that's not checks and balances - that's circular power that could be abused.

The power the Lt. Governor would have under the bill over the Assembly- Breaking Tie Votes and to appoint Assemblymen in cases of vacancy (the latter will likely be changed to joint appointment anyway).

The power the Assembly would have under the bill over the Lt. Governor- Voting to confirm an appointee to the position upon the occurrence of a vacancy

That's basically the relationship between the Vice President and Senate in the U.S., except in this case, we would have a separate presiding officer for the legislative body from within it (the Speaker) and the LG have some power in appointing members to the body in case of vacancy.

What is a potential scenario in which you could envision power abuse arising from this?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

The LG has power to fill vacancies, break ties, propose legislation... he's actually more powerful than the Governor.  The only thing he doesn't do is sign laws.  He has control over the Court and the Assembly.  And he doesn't even have to run with the Governor, which makes this even more problematic.  What if the two of them don't agree on the Judicial nominee?  And why give him the power to replace people in the Assembly instead of the Governor?  This amendment essentially makes the Governor a figurehead.  I'll have a lot of amendments for this bill, but if they pass, it's gonna look nothing like the original.  I think this is a very short-sighted amendment that's going to present major problems down the road.

[Talleyrand]

The LG has power to fill vacancies, break ties, propose legislation... he's actually more powerful than the Governor.  The only thing he doesn't do is sign laws.  He has control over the Court and the Assembly.  And he doesn't even have to run with the Governor, which makes this even more problematic.  What if the two of them don't agree on the Judicial nominee?  And why give him the power to replace people in the Assembly instead of the Governor?  This amendment essentially makes the Governor a figurehead.  I'll have a lot of amendments for this bill, but if they pass, it's gonna look nothing like the original.  I think this is a very short-sighted amendment that's going to present major problems down the road.

This is exactly why the Governor is still more powerful. And we're amending the bill to make the Assembly appointment a joint one between the Governor and Lieutenant Governor, as I've mentioned earlier. And I support giving the Lieutenant Governor the ability to break ties; that won't be a common situation but when Assemblymembers miss votes or abstentions create a tie, it's perfectly reasonable to allow a regionwide elected official to break it. And I still support giving the Lieutenant Governor the power to introduce legislation- I want such a position to be active in the legislative process, not just a token on one's resume.

I already answered and disproved your assertion about the LG "having control over the Court and the Assembly". That's a highly misleading statement.

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[/quote]

That's what happens if they can't come to a consensus, so I don't anticipate such a situation occurring.

I'm personally very pleased with this amendment and while this is definitely the early stage, I fully expect it to remain quite similar to the original when it is up for a final vote. You continuously talk about major problems arising, but you still have yet to give one that is clearly insolvable, Mr. Speaker.

[tmthforu94]

Hopefully this isn't voted on until I get back to propose amendments - I think the Assembly may be becoming too power-hungry with all of this. They are far more powerful than the Governor after this.

[Talleyrand]

Hopefully this isn't voted on until I get back to propose amendments - I think the Assembly may be becoming too power-hungry with all of this. They are far more powerful than the Governor after this.

In what respects?

My intention in proposing this was not to increase the power of the Assembly at the expense of the Governor, but rather to create a strong new position to invigorate activity and fill a void in the Mideastern landscape. I don't want anyone to feel otherwise.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

But it's a ridiculous idea that the Speaker should be able to nominate the judge if the executive branch can't agree, since that'd mean he's later voting to approve his own nominee.

I wasn't aware of the amendment to make assembly nominations done by both people, so I guess that moves the LG from being more powerful than the Governor to about equal.  The only thing he can't do is sign laws.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

I'm also not a fan of the Speaker of the Assembly making judicial nominations, it seems like it flies right in the face of the concept of separation of powers.  However, I really like the idea of joint judicial and Assembly appointments (especially the latter) being made by the Governor and the Lieutenant Governor.  I would also like to echo the sentiments expressed by Assemblyman TexasDem.  This is not a power-grab, but an effort to create a strong new position to provide civic-minded Mideasterners with another opportunity to participate in and contribute to the political process.  As such, the office shouldn't be just a resume-booster, but a position with real powers. 

I'm fine with some changes, but I don't want to strip the position of all major powers it would have either.  Btw, what are people's thoughts on making the Lieutenant Governor be required to help update the wiki?  Lastly, with all due respect to Speaker Inks, I think most of us would agree that the Lieutenant Governor not being able to sign and veto bills is a pretty big deal.  That is easily one of the most important gubernatorial powers not some trivial difference.  As such, I don't think one can really argue that the Lieutenant Governor is just as powerful as the Governor (it might be a strong position under the bill, but not that strong).

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

No, my saying that was based on thinking that the LG would be the exclusive person to nominate vacancies to the Assembly (thus those who can override a veto).  Now that that's no longer there, the LG is definitely weaker than the Governor.  I just think he should be weaker.

[Talleyrand]

Isn't the Assembly in recess right now?

If not, I'd like to pose the following question. What's preferable, separately elected LGs or LGs elected on a ticket with the Governor? I initially supported the former, but I've moved increasingly towards the latter. It could prevent acrimonious relationships between the two executive offices which could create dysfunction in the government in things including Judicial and Assembly nominations.. I'd be okay with either method of election, but those are my thoughts at the moment.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Isn't the Assembly in recess right now?

Yes.  That doesn't mean we can't come on the floor and talk though.  We're in recess; the doors aren't locked.

[Talleyrand]

Isn't the Assembly in recess right now?

Yes.  That doesn't mean we can't come on the floor and talk though.  We're in recess; the doors aren't locked.

Thanks for clarifying that.

Also, I edited my penultimate post (at this time) to pose a question. What are the Assembly's thoughts on that issue?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

They were separate before, but I never liked that.