the hammer and sickle vs. the Christian cross

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

can someone explain the difference betweent eh two?

Supposedly the hammer and sickle is evil because loads of people were killed by people who used it as their symbol. But loads of people were also killed by the Crusades, and the Salem witch trials, and various purges of Jews in Medevial Europe, etc. But one does not consider the Christian cross to be a symbol of those actions.

Similarily, the hammer and sickle represents the unity of power of workers. One can agree with that and not Stalin's genocide.

I have no problems with either symbol. I agree with what both represent and it's not the genocides committed by those claiming to be Christians or Marxists. So what is wrong with the hammer and sickle?

[Richard]

can someone explain the difference betweent eh two?

Supposedly the hammer and sickle is evil because loads of people were killed by people who used it as their symbol. But loads of people were also killed by the Crusades, and the Salem witch trials, and various purges of Jews in Medevial Europe, etc. But one does not consider the Christian cross to be a symbol of those actions.

Similarily, the hammer and sickle represents the unity of power of workers. One can agree with that and not Stalin's genocide.

I have no problems with either symbol. I agree with what both represent and it's not the genocides committed by those claiming to be Christians or Marxists. So what is wrong with the hammer and sickle?

Someone once said, a long time ago, in a different language (so I'm paraphrasing here):

We will "harvest" the Christians with the sickle and "hammer" God out of heaven.




Unity of workers my ass.

[Bono]

can someone explain the difference betweent eh two?

Supposedly the hammer and sickle is evil because loads of people were killed by people who used it as their symbol. But loads of people were also killed by the Crusades, and the Salem witch trials, and various purges of Jews in Medevial Europe, etc. But one does not consider the Christian cross to be a symbol of those actions.

Similarily, the hammer and sickle represents the unity of power of workers. One can agree with that and not Stalin's genocide.

I have no problems with either symbol. I agree with what both represent and it's not the genocides committed by those claiming to be Christians or Marxists. So what is wrong with the hammer and sickle?

The inquisition killed about 10000 people, if so. Communism killes 100 Million.

[Beet]

The Christian cross it the hope of life after death for billions of non-atheists.

The hammer and sickle is the wet dream of a kid in Minnesota who dreams of sticking it to dark skinned communist guerillas.

[Platypus]

Actually, you do have a point-lots of evil was done in the name of god. Very interesting philosophical question, but Christianity in it's moderate form is better than 'moderate communism', ie, every communist state ever.

Crusading 'Evangelical' Communist and Christians both scare me about equally.

[The Duke]

Here's one difference.

The major violence in the name of Christianity (Crusades) was part of a geopolitical struggle with a rival civilization, it was not an internal repression.

The internal repressions of Christianity were more minor and more infrequent than those of Communism.

Every society has its wars, not every society has its Siberian death camps.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The Christian cross it the hope of life after death for billions of non-atheists.

myself included.

The hammer and sickle is the wet dream of a kid in Minnesota who dreams of sticking it to dark skinned communist guerillas.

actually it represents a lot more than my sexual fantasies.

[dazzleman]

The Christian cross it the hope of life after death for billions of non-atheists.

myself included.

The hammer and sickle is the wet dream of a kid in Minnesota who dreams of sticking it to dark skinned communist guerillas.

actually it represents a lot more than my sexual fantasies.

So is it fair to say that you are a Christian communist?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I'm not really a communist, but if you want to say so, go ahead. I guess many would say it's an oxymoron, but I hear there's a lot in Italy.

[Storebought]

The Christian cross it the hope of life after death for billions of non-atheists.

myself included.

The hammer and sickle is the wet dream of a kid in Minnesota who dreams of sticking it to dark skinned communist guerillas.

actually it represents a lot more than my sexual fantasies.

So is it fair to say that you are a Christian communist?

"Even though Denise Lerocq is a thieving, murdering, blackmailing Communist, she is still a good Catholic girl at heart"

---Michelle, "Allo Allo"

[dazzleman]

I'm not really a communist, but if you want to say so, go ahead. I guess many would say it's an oxymoron, but I hear there's a lot in Italy.

Then why your reverence for the hammer and sickle?  What great hopes and dreams does that symbol hold for you?  To mean, it means mass murder, military aggression, gulags and complete economic dysfunction.  I can't see anything positive about it.

[Richard]

I'm not really a communist, but if you want to say so, go ahead. I guess many would say it's an oxymoron, but I hear there's a lot in Italy.

Then why your reverence for the hammer and sickle?  What great hopes and dreams does that symbol hold for you?  To mean, it means mass murder, military aggression, gulags and complete economic dysfunction.  I can't see anything positive about it.

Everyone is EQUAL.  Everyone has equal misery and can die in equalness.

[dazzleman]

I'm not really a communist, but if you want to say so, go ahead. I guess many would say it's an oxymoron, but I hear there's a lot in Italy.

Then why your reverence for the hammer and sickle?  What great hopes and dreams does that symbol hold for you?  To mean, it means mass murder, military aggression, gulags and complete economic dysfunction.  I can't see anything positive about it.

Everyone is EQUAL.  Everyone has equal misery and can die in equalness.

The part about everybody being equal is not true either.  Communism simply uses a different, and far less efficient, means than capitalism to distribute wealth.

Leonid Brezhnev had a vacation home that would make Donald Trump blush.  In communism, political power, and obsequience to those with that power, determines level of wealth.  After Leonid Brezhnev's mother saw his "cottage" at Zhavidovo, she supposedly said, "Leonid, what will you do if the communists come back to power?"

Communism can't work.  Wherever it has been tried, it has simply been a convenient excuse to impose wretched poverty on the masses while repressing them, torturing and killing some, and initiating military aggression.  No good ever came out of communism.

[Bono]

I'm not really a communist, but if you want to say so, go ahead. I guess many would say it's an oxymoron, but I hear there's a lot in Italy.

I know one old man who goes to church with a communist party pin, and sticks it out during communion, just to piss of the priest.

[phk]

Communism's good part is that it can abolish the myth known as religion.

[John Dibble]

Communism's good part is that it can abolish the myth known as religion.

...through murder and oppression.

[phk]

Thats the perfect way.

[John Dibble]

Thats the perfect way.

'Civil Rights' my ass.

[phk]

I'd gas them.

[Richard]

I'd gas them.

I wish you'd go into policits.

[phk]

I do as well, hopefully I will.

[Capey]

I'm not really a communist, but if you want to say so, go ahead. I guess many would say it's an oxymoron, but I hear there's a lot in Italy.

There are a lot in South America. Haven't you heard of Liberation Theology?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I'm not really a communist, but if you want to say so, go ahead. I guess many would say it's an oxymoron, but I hear there's a lot in Italy.

There are a lot in South America. Haven't you heard of Liberation Theology?

yes, I've heard of the term before.

I'm not really a communist, but if you want to say so, go ahead. I guess many would say it's an oxymoron, but I hear there's a lot in Italy.

Then why your reverence for the hammer and sickle? What great hopes and dreams does that symbol hold for you? To mean, it means mass murder, military aggression, gulags and complete economic dysfunction. I can't see anything positive about it.

The liberation of workes from capitalist oppression. The equality of all human people. Those are the ideals it means to me that many who have flown it did not intend to implement.

BTW, what's funny about always using Stalin as some boogeyman to completely discredit an ideology is that a very good chunk of the people Stalin killed were Communists. I think it's pretty safe to say they wouldn't be Stalin supporters.

[John Dibble]

The liberation of workes from capitalist oppression.

...into the oppression of the state. Even if it isn't social oppression, it's still oppression. Slavery to the downtrodden.

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An impossible ideal. Even if you equalized people's economic status, people aren't equal - equal in rights, sure, but not equal in ability. Some people are smarter, stronger, more attractive, or have some other quality that gives them an advantage. Heck, some people merely have the advantage of being motivated. The only way to equalize things is to bring such people down - it's not possible to bring others up, because it goes beyond their abilities.

Is it fair to bring down the strong for the sake of the weak? Do those born with ability not have the right to use their abilities for their own benefit?

And what is so great about equality? Outside of equal rights, I don't see the need for equality - I see the need to let people excel, to use their abilities. We don't look up to the weak for inspiration - we look to the strong. The strong motivate us, we want to be like them. We want to be great. We want to excel. They drive us to improve ourselves.

The desire to make all equal is the desire for equal mediocrity.

[dazzleman]

Then why your reverence for the hammer and sickle? What great hopes and dreams does that symbol hold for you? To mean, it means mass murder, military aggression, gulags and complete economic dysfunction. I can't see anything positive about it.

The liberation of workes from capitalist oppression. The equality of all human people. Those are the ideals it means to me that many who have flown it did not intend to implement.

You live in a dream world.  I really think you need to grow up and face reality.

First off, what you are calling "oppression of the worker" is really just the requirement that a person earn his/her wages.  I believe that workers should be treated justly and fairly, but the reality is that workers would not have a job if somebody didn't invest in the means of production that provide them that job.  To say that they are "oppressed" because they have to take orders from those who supplied the means of their employment is absurd.

It's true that some people treat workers better than others, and there are some who treat them quite poorly.  But this doesn't mean that the very need to please those who provide you with your employment is oppressive.

The equality of all human people is an impossible ideal, and communism brings us further from it, not closer to it, unless you consider shared misery as an equalizing factor.  The reality is that different people make different levels of contribution to the economy, due mainly to different levels of intelligence, skill and ambition, and their economic status reflects that.  Contrary to what you think, being poor and at the lower rungs of the economic ladder is not a virtue.  Nor is it a condemnation.  It is simply a reflection of the level of contribution as person has been able to make, or has chosen to make, to the larger economy.

To forcibly attempt to make all equal in this regard is to drag the economy down to the lowest common denominator, which means economic collapse.  It is amazing how poor some people have learned the lessons of even very recent history.

While people can never be equal economically without enforcing abject poverty on everybody, we do have to acknowledge the inequality of people before the law, and basic human rights, which should not be subject to economic status.  All societies have some issue with this, as the rich are often able to effectively "buy" things (like favorable justice, if they have committed a crime) that should not be for sale.  But to convert society into a communistic hell in a vain attempt to curb these abuses would make the cure far worse than the disease.