Thomas Jefferson was quite the proverbial asshole

[Joe Republic]

I could only excerpt a handful of chunks of this article due to this forum's draconian copyright policy, so I sincerely encourage you to read the entire thing.

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[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Great find, Joe.

Comparision between Washington and Jefferson is particulary interesting. Not only, as mentioned in the article, Washington did free his slaves but from what I've been reading about him, he was doing everything to avoid harsh treatment of his slaves. For example there was only one instance he seek to bring back a runaway (didn't try very hard, ftr) and he felt very uneasy about separating slave families.

But Jefferson always had a good PR. In fact he was just full of s**t. 

[memphis]

Jefferson was opposed to slavery in principle not because it was "wrong" for blacks but because he thought it made white people lazy. For this reason, he triede to get slavery in the list of grievances in the Declaration, but the Continental Congress wouldn't have it. But he was against manumission because he did not think that blacks would behave well once freed. He said that the colonies "had the wolf by the throat." As regards Sally Hemmings, not many people know that she was Jefferson's dead wife's half sister because their common father had also been taking full advantage of the master/slave relationship. Oh, if only we could return to the values of the Founders

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Following the Revolutionary War, a number of slaveholders in the Upper South freed their slaved. Just saying.

[minionofmidas]

I always thought that Jefferson simply lost it on the big issue (ie started to emote out of his wallet exclusively) not too long after the Declaration of Independence, rather than that he was an asshole from the start.

[Barnes]

His concerns of being financially destitute were always more pressing than his desire to free slaves...

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

I never was a huge fan of the man for a variety of reasons (though I also had reasons to like him). This doesn't exactly subtract from the already insulting term I referred to him as, a Godless Communist.

[Barnes]

I never was a huge fan of the man for a variety of reasons (though I also had reasons to like him). This doesn't exactly subtract from the already insulting term I referred to him as, a Godless Communist.

I hope you meant that purely as an insult and not as a judgment of Jefferson's actual beliefs.

[justfollowingtheelections]

He was a horrible person.  This was a guy that repeatedly raped a 14 year old girl.  And no, the fact that those were different times is not an excuse.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

His concerns of being financially destitute were always more pressing than his desire to free slaves...

That's because he was such a spendthrift, he usually was at the edge of being financially destitute.  In many ways, Jefferson was the Donald Trump of his age.  If it hadn't been for his political fame, he very likely would have ended up in debtors' prison.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

He was a horrible person.  This was a guy that repeatedly raped a 14 year old girl.  And no, the fact that those were different times is not an excuse.

Rape is a fairly strong word here, especially since there is not even the faintest scintilla of evidence to suggest anything approximating rape was involved.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

His concerns of being financially destitute were always more pressing than his desire to free slaves...

That's because he was such a spendthrift, he usually was at the edge of being financially destitute.  In many ways, Jefferson was the Donald Trump of his age.  If it hadn't been for his political fame, he very likely would have ended up in debtors' prison.

Wasn't he rebuilding Monticello like every year?

Anyway, while I do understand economic concerns (Jefferson being too indebted to afford freeing his slaves), Tom wasn't particulary "kind" master as opposed to his overhyped "humanitarian" image.

[memphis]

He was a horrible person.  This was a guy that repeatedly raped a 14 year old girl.  And no, the fact that those were different times is not an excuse.

Rape is a fairly strong word here, especially since there is not even the faintest scintilla of evidence to suggest anything approximating rape was involved.

Go down to your local school, pick up a 14 year old girl, and have your way with her (please don't actually do this). See what crime you get charged with.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

He was a horrible person.  This was a guy that repeatedly raped a 14 year old girl.  And no, the fact that those were different times is not an excuse.

Rape is a fairly strong word here, especially since there is not even the faintest scintilla of evidence to suggest anything approximating rape was involved.

Go down to your local school, pick up a 14 year old girl, and have your way with her (please don't actually do this). See what crime you get charged with.

If you want to use what would be an equivalent age of consent now to what it was then, I'd be picking up an 18 or 20 year old.  Besides, it's clear bloagohair wasn't talking about statutory rape.

I'll gladly agree Jefferson was a mediocre president and a mediocre man, but not that he was the devil incarnate as some here seem to be saying.

[Barnes]

His concerns of being financially destitute were always more pressing than his desire to free slaves...

That's because he was such a spendthrift, he usually was at the edge of being financially destitute.  In many ways, Jefferson was the Donald Trump of his age.  If it hadn't been for his political fame, he very likely would have ended up in debtors' prison.

Quite so.  He's often praised for donating his personal library to congress after the original Library of Congress was destroyed in the War of 1812, but his main motive was so he could pay off his debts.

[homelycooking]

In his Notes on the State of Virginia, Jefferson depicts his emotionally detached violation of Indian burial grounds in the name of scientific inquiry:

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[memphis]

He was a horrible person.  This was a guy that repeatedly raped a 14 year old girl.  And no, the fact that those were different times is not an excuse.

Rape is a fairly strong word here, especially since there is not even the faintest scintilla of evidence to suggest anything approximating rape was involved.

Go down to your local school, pick up a 14 year old girl, and have your way with her (please don't actually do this). See what crime you get charged with.

If you want to use what would be an equivalent age of consent now to what it was then, I'd be picking up an 18 or 20 year old.  Besides, it's clear bloagohair wasn't talking about statutory rape.

I'll gladly agree Jefferson was a mediocre president and a mediocre man, but not that he was the devil incarnate as some here seem to be saying.

He owned her. And not in the xbox kind of way. Consent doesn't even enter the equation. There were great things about Jefferson. He was all about the separation of church and state. As president, he bought the whole middle part of today's US. He had a scientific mind and was way ahead of his time on matters of education and what it could do for the public. However, on the having an affair with his dead wife's underage half sister, who was also his property, front, it's simply indefensible.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The Cruiser took a pop at him over this kind of stuff in the 90s: http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/96oct/obrien/obrien.htm

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Also, epic comment thread over at a related piece on Crooked Timber: http://crookedtimber.org/2012/12/02/thomas-jefferson-american-fascist/

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

I never was a huge fan of the man for a variety of reasons (though I also had reasons to like him). This doesn't exactly subtract from the already insulting term I referred to him as, a Godless Communist.

I hope you meant that purely as an insult and not as a judgment of Jefferson's actual beliefs.

Insult, though he was quite left-wing compared to many at the time, and that's never good.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

I never was a huge fan of the man for a variety of reasons (though I also had reasons to like him). This doesn't exactly subtract from the already insulting term I referred to him as, a Godless Communist.

I hope you meant that purely as an insult and not as a judgment of Jefferson's actual beliefs.

Insult, though he was quite left-wing compared to many at the time, and that's never good.

Go Elbridge Gerry yourself.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

I never was a huge fan of the man for a variety of reasons (though I also had reasons to like him). This doesn't exactly subtract from the already insulting term I referred to him as, a Godless Communist.

I hope you meant that purely as an insult and not as a judgment of Jefferson's actual beliefs.

Insult, though he was quite left-wing compared to many at the time, and that's never good.

Go Elbridge Gerry yourself.

That's the new substitution for f[Inks]? Or was Elbridge Gerry the moderator of real life 1800's?

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

I never was a huge fan of the man for a variety of reasons (though I also had reasons to like him). This doesn't exactly subtract from the already insulting term I referred to him as, a Godless Communist.

I hope you meant that purely as an insult and not as a judgment of Jefferson's actual beliefs.

Insult, though he was quite left-wing compared to many at the time, and that's never good.

Go Elbridge Gerry yourself.

That's the new substitution for f[Inks]? Or was Elbridge Gerry the moderator of real life 1800's?

Rather a death wish, considering his "record" as VP

But seriously, I have problems with thinking of Jefferson as particulary "left-wing" compared to his peers. Of course, there were "freedom of press", "freedom of religion" and "I believe in the people" stuff but that applied more or less to most of the Founding Fathers. On the other hand, Jefferson was an agrarian freak, affraid of industry and deeply attached to semi-feudal Southern way of life.

I guess I'm a Federalist.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

I never was a huge fan of the man for a variety of reasons (though I also had reasons to like him). This doesn't exactly subtract from the already insulting term I referred to him as, a Godless Communist.

I hope you meant that purely as an insult and not as a judgment of Jefferson's actual beliefs.

Insult, though he was quite left-wing compared to many at the time, and that's never good.

Go Elbridge Gerry yourself.

That's the new substitution for f[Inks]? Or was Elbridge Gerry the moderator of real life 1800's?

Rather a death wish, considering his "record" as VP

But seriously, I have problems with thinking of Jefferson as particulary "left-wing" compared to his peers. Of course, there were "freedom of press", "freedom of religion" and "I believe in the people" stuff but that applied more or less to most of the Founding Fathers. On the other hand, Jefferson was an agrarian freak, affraid of industry and deeply attached to semi-feudal Southern way of life.

I guess I'm a Federalist.

In the sense of his rhetorical love for tearing down aristocracy and systems, he was "liberal". While "conservatives" feared Shay's Rebellion, Jefferson and his love for revolution--a left-wing thing in the non-ideological sense--had little qualms over it. As well, unlike the majority at the constitutional convention, he was concerned about the amount of power that the constitution gave. He led the way in the dis-establishment of the Church of England (or whatever its American version was) in Virginia, practically called for secession in the wake of Adams' reactionary Alien and Sedition Acts, preferred an agrarian economy in contrast to his image of "evil" Northern industrialists and financiers, and detested banks. All I can say is thank God he didn't follow through on his rhetoric once he was actually President. I'm not saying he was some superhero in the way of racial views, but in terms of his contemporaries, he was quite left-wing.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Just as a point of semi-pedantry, the 'Southern way of life' (whatever it might have been) never resembled feudalism in any meaningful way, even if some of the richer farmers (because that's all they were) might have loved to pretend otherwise...