You want your money back??

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

So take it back!

TAKE BACK YOUR MONEY! YOUR SCONES! YOUR CHIPS AND VINEGAR! YOUR FISH AND CHIPS! YOUR DRUNK GIRLS! YOUR BAD WEATHER! YOUR JELLY MINT! ALL YOUR FOOD! YOUR MARKS AND SPENCER! YOUR HARRY POTTER! YOUR 50 SHADES OF GREY! YOUR SO CALLED NEWSPAPERS! YOUR CAPITALISM! YOUR QUEEN! YOUR NAZI PRINCE! YOUR PRINCESSES! YOUR PERVERTED AND PERVERTING FOOTBALL LEAGUE! YOUR MUFFINS! YOUR WHISKEY! YOUR SENSELESS THING YOU CALL CRICKET! YOUR CITY!

WE ARE THE CONTINENTAL EUROPEANS AND WE DON'T NEED YOU IN EUROPE!

WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU BRINGING US?!

...did I miss something?

Seriously, if, maybe after 2014, EU institutions begin to go further, I wonder what will be the future of UK within that, and actually I wonder what very worthy stuff they can bring within the 'Union' if they continue their perpetual rather selfish attitude to flatter the anti-European part of their opinion (tonight I heard about a poll saying 60% of British would quit Europe...?).

Not that other European countries wouldn't all enjoy to earn the biggest benefits they can for themselves in European summits and/or to sometimes flatter their national opinion against Europe, but UK seems to cultivate this, kinda like a part of their identity.

Maybe they wouldn't exactly 'quit' the EU, but maybe in the end they would have a barely better status than Turkey.

I often hoped in a strong European Defense, and if France became the major military power of Europe, UK is not so far behind, even if France's advantage being to be independent on everything, from the assault riffle to the nuke button, passing by boats and planes and when we're not, it's that we have strong European alliance with countries like Germany or Spain, while UK defense equipment still seems to be partly dependent on US, they would clearly be those with which we could quickly create a strong defense, and having a European Defense could be one more big step for the European creation, and could also help to make a lot of savings in the same time (isn't what people are mainly looking for nowadays??).

But, outside of this, which isn't even sure they would accept since they seem so attached to be attached to nothing beyond the seas around them (except maybe to Northern Ireland)...WHAT THE HELL COULD THEY BRING US??

Anyways, actually, lately, when I use to wonder about the future of Europe, I use to imagine it without UK, or with them having a marginal role, or maybe the only thing that would make them change could be a big event that would make them fall in that, unless that if they have to fall somewhere it would be closer of the US, Anglos going to Anglos, or just alone with their Commonwealth, dunno...

They don't even have Monty Pythons to offer and we don't need them anymore to have tea, so what's left...?

Hmm, maybe if Scotland breaks, it could change a lot of things, but doesn't seem to be something about which someone can have any certitude, so whatever.

[You kip if you want to...]

Conservative Party opinion =/= Great British public

Cameron has made Britain the most isolated it's been since the 90s, to be fair.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Conservative Party opinion =/= Great British public

Cameron has made Britain the most isolated it's been since the 90s, to be fair.

You've gotta admit, it's not the first time UK is a thorn in EU's side.

[Platypus]

As my uncle said, "We didn't die for them so they can play pass-the-agricultural-subsidy with the French and Germans".

He was advocating the UK returning to preferential treatment to the Commonwealth, and I was saying it was time for us to embrace Asia and the UK to embrace Europe...but a couple of years later, and I'm pretty much convinced of his opinion.

Which is terrifying, but there you go.

[Swedish Rainbow Capitalist Cheese]

Are Sweden allowed to leave as well? We'd be very pleased if we were allowed to.

[k-onmmunist]

britain pays a lot into the eu and gets little out of it. it's time we pulled the plug on the corporatist bureaucrats and left altogether - we'll see how long the continent can tolerate the monetary hit without us.

sick of hearing anglophobic nonsense like this.

[Antonio the Sixth]

we'll see how long the continent can tolerate the monetary hit without us.

Right, because your (yeah, Cameron's, but still) insane austerity policies have been helping the EU economy a lot lately...

[k-onmmunist]

we'll see how long the continent can tolerate the monetary hit without us.

Right, because your (yeah, Cameron's, but still) insane austerity policies have been helping the EU economy a lot lately...

well, i can agree on his policies being insane, but the uk still pays in an absolute fortune. i fail to see how left wingers can defend the european union though, given its anti-democratic nature and the corporatism involved. they ruled against workers rights in the laval and viking cases because workers rights violates 'free movement of labour' due to all countries having to comply (though admittedly, britain's ridiculous union laws don't help)

[Antonio the Sixth]

we'll see how long the continent can tolerate the monetary hit without us.

Right, because your (yeah, Cameron's, but still) insane austerity policies have been helping the EU economy a lot lately...

well, i can agree on his policies being insane, but the uk still pays in an absolute fortune. i fail to see how left wingers can defend the european union though, given its anti-democratic nature and the corporatism involved. they ruled against workers rights in the laval and viking cases because workers rights violates 'free movement of labour' due to all countries having to comply (though admittedly, britain's ridiculous union laws don't help)

There is a difference between supporting the idea of EU and supporting the EU as it is.

[k-onmmunist]

we'll see how long the continent can tolerate the monetary hit without us.

Right, because your (yeah, Cameron's, but still) insane austerity policies have been helping the EU economy a lot lately...

well, i can agree on his policies being insane, but the uk still pays in an absolute fortune. i fail to see how left wingers can defend the european union though, given its anti-democratic nature and the corporatism involved. they ruled against workers rights in the laval and viking cases because workers rights violates 'free movement of labour' due to all countries having to comply (though admittedly, britain's ridiculous union laws don't help)

There is a difference between supporting the idea of EU and supporting the EU as it is.

i acknowledge that. the problem as i see it is that the european union is too inflexible to reform without drastic measures.

[Antonio the Sixth]

we'll see how long the continent can tolerate the monetary hit without us.

Right, because your (yeah, Cameron's, but still) insane austerity policies have been helping the EU economy a lot lately...

well, i can agree on his policies being insane, but the uk still pays in an absolute fortune. i fail to see how left wingers can defend the european union though, given its anti-democratic nature and the corporatism involved. they ruled against workers rights in the laval and viking cases because workers rights violates 'free movement of labour' due to all countries having to comply (though admittedly, britain's ridiculous union laws don't help)

There is a difference between supporting the idea of EU and supporting the EU as it is.

i acknowledge that. the problem as i see it is that the european union is too inflexible to reform without drastic measures.

It might be... But my philosophy has never been "when something doesn't work well enough, let's break it", but rather "let's fix it to the best we can". If all left-wingers who are dissatisfied with the current State of the EU joined together in demanding a major overhaul of the EU's governance and policies, we'd have a fair chance to succeed.

[MaxQue]

we'll see how long the continent can tolerate the monetary hit without us.

Right, because your (yeah, Cameron's, but still) insane austerity policies have been helping the EU economy a lot lately...

well, i can agree on his policies being insane, but the uk still pays in an absolute fortune. i fail to see how left wingers can defend the european union though, given its anti-democratic nature and the corporatism involved. they ruled against workers rights in the laval and viking cases because workers rights violates 'free movement of labour' due to all countries having to comply (though admittedly, britain's ridiculous union laws don't help)

There is a difference between supporting the idea of EU and supporting the EU as it is.

i acknowledge that. the problem as i see it is that the european union is too inflexible to reform without drastic measures.

It might be... But my philosophy has never been "when something doesn't work well enough, let's break it", but rather "let's fix it to the best we can". If all left-wingers who are dissatisfied with the current State of the EU joined together in demanding a major overhaul of the EU's governance and policies, we'd have a fair chance to succeed.

You're really naive if you think than anything can happen while Queen Merkel (or Germans, really) are still here.

All EU decisions are made for the economical interest of Germany industry. Even in subjects that are surprising, like regulation of chemical products.

[k-onmmunist]

we'll see how long the continent can tolerate the monetary hit without us.

Right, because your (yeah, Cameron's, but still) insane austerity policies have been helping the EU economy a lot lately...

well, i can agree on his policies being insane, but the uk still pays in an absolute fortune. i fail to see how left wingers can defend the european union though, given its anti-democratic nature and the corporatism involved. they ruled against workers rights in the laval and viking cases because workers rights violates 'free movement of labour' due to all countries having to comply (though admittedly, britain's ridiculous union laws don't help)

There is a difference between supporting the idea of EU and supporting the EU as it is.

i acknowledge that. the problem as i see it is that the european union is too inflexible to reform without drastic measures.

It might be... But my philosophy has never been "when something doesn't work well enough, let's break it", but rather "let's fix it to the best we can". If all left-wingers who are dissatisfied with the current State of the EU joined together in demanding a major overhaul of the EU's governance and policies, we'd have a fair chance to succeed.

i think the problem is that the eu is currently caught between statuses. i'm completely in favour of european free trade, as long as europe is able to maintain relatively similiar wage levels. i'd also be open to the idea of european state if that came to be, some time in the future. but as things are currently constituted, the eu resembles a highly bloated bureaucracy with the aim of enforcing numerous economic and social goals which could be done through simple treaties.

the problem with trying to fix the eu is that its designed in a way that makes reform very difficult. it might have been possible in the past when it was a small economic agreement between western european countries, but you've got over 20 members now, all of whom have to agree for a new treaty to be signed into law. that makes it very difficult for the eu to be reformed beyond the most simple measures.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I agree that a smaller EU would work much better, really I agree with most of what you guys said. But what I also know is that there is no way tiny countries like those that compose EU can durably preserve their Welfare State and standards of living against the pressure of globalized corporations. So, like it or not, the EU is the only blueprint we have for a concentration of countries defending together their common interests. Much leaves to be desired, but fixing it remains our only hope.

[Franzl]

we'll see how long the continent can tolerate the monetary hit without us.

Right, because your (yeah, Cameron's, but still) insane austerity policies have been helping the EU economy a lot lately...

well, i can agree on his policies being insane, but the uk still pays in an absolute fortune. i fail to see how left wingers can defend the european union though, given its anti-democratic nature and the corporatism involved. they ruled against workers rights in the laval and viking cases because workers rights violates 'free movement of labour' due to all countries having to comply (though admittedly, britain's ridiculous union laws don't help)

There is a difference between supporting the idea of EU and supporting the EU as it is.

i acknowledge that. the problem as i see it is that the european union is too inflexible to reform without drastic measures.

It might be... But my philosophy has never been "when something doesn't work well enough, let's break it", but rather "let's fix it to the best we can". If all left-wingers who are dissatisfied with the current State of the EU joined together in demanding a major overhaul of the EU's governance and policies, we'd have a fair chance to succeed.

You're really naive if you think than anything can happen while Queen Merkel (or Germans, really) are still here.

All EU decisions are made for the economical interest of Germany industry. Even in subjects that are surprising, like regulation of chemical products.

How do you plan to fund anything without our money?

[k-onmmunist]

I agree that a smaller EU would work much better, really I agree with most of what you guys said. But what I also know is that there is no way tiny countries like those that compose EU can durably preserve their Welfare State and standards of living against the pressure of globalized corporations. So, like it or not, the EU is the only blueprint we have for a concentration of countries defending together their common interests. Much leaves to be desired, but fixing it remains our only hope.

the answer is to change globalization, not to sacrifice the welfare model

[Antonio the Sixth]

I agree that a smaller EU would work much better, really I agree with most of what you guys said. But what I also know is that there is no way tiny countries like those that compose EU can durably preserve their Welfare State and standards of living against the pressure of globalized corporations. So, like it or not, the EU is the only blueprint we have for a concentration of countries defending together their common interests. Much leaves to be desired, but fixing it remains our only hope.

the answer is to change globalization, not to sacrifice the welfare model

You can't really "change" globalization, nor can you stop it. The only thing we can do is make sure political globalization catches up with economic globalization. And EU, as awful as it might be, is the best vehicle we have for that purpose.

[k-onmmunist]

I agree that a smaller EU would work much better, really I agree with most of what you guys said. But what I also know is that there is no way tiny countries like those that compose EU can durably preserve their Welfare State and standards of living against the pressure of globalized corporations. So, like it or not, the EU is the only blueprint we have for a concentration of countries defending together their common interests. Much leaves to be desired, but fixing it remains our only hope.

the answer is to change globalization, not to sacrifice the welfare model

You can't really "change" globalization, nor can you stop it. The only thing we can do is make sure political globalization catches up with economic globalization. And EU, as awful as it might be, is the best vehicle we have for that purpose.

i don't believe that for a second - look at the 1870-1914 model of globalization. while i'm not saying it would be a good idea to have a world war to prevent it going any further, it's by no means irreversible.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I agree that a smaller EU would work much better, really I agree with most of what you guys said. But what I also know is that there is no way tiny countries like those that compose EU can durably preserve their Welfare State and standards of living against the pressure of globalized corporations. So, like it or not, the EU is the only blueprint we have for a concentration of countries defending together their common interests. Much leaves to be desired, but fixing it remains our only hope.

the answer is to change globalization, not to sacrifice the welfare model

You can't really "change" globalization, nor can you stop it. The only thing we can do is make sure political globalization catches up with economic globalization. And EU, as awful as it might be, is the best vehicle we have for that purpose.

i don't believe that for a second - look at the 1870-1914 model of globalization. while i'm not saying it would be a good idea to have a world war to prevent it going any further, it's by no means irreversible.

What do you mean exactly? Yes, States used to have more leverage in the global economy at that time, but that was because economic globalization wasn't yet brought to all its logical conclusions. What has happened since then in the economic sphere was destined to happen. The biggest mistake was that the State didn't see it coming soon enough to counteract this, or were unwilling to because of national pride.

[MaxQue]

we'll see how long the continent can tolerate the monetary hit without us.

Right, because your (yeah, Cameron's, but still) insane austerity policies have been helping the EU economy a lot lately...

well, i can agree on his policies being insane, but the uk still pays in an absolute fortune. i fail to see how left wingers can defend the european union though, given its anti-democratic nature and the corporatism involved. they ruled against workers rights in the laval and viking cases because workers rights violates 'free movement of labour' due to all countries having to comply (though admittedly, britain's ridiculous union laws don't help)

There is a difference between supporting the idea of EU and supporting the EU as it is.

i acknowledge that. the problem as i see it is that the european union is too inflexible to reform without drastic measures.

It might be... But my philosophy has never been "when something doesn't work well enough, let's break it", but rather "let's fix it to the best we can". If all left-wingers who are dissatisfied with the current State of the EU joined together in demanding a major overhaul of the EU's governance and policies, we'd have a fair chance to succeed.

You're really naive if you think than anything can happen while Queen Merkel (or Germans, really) are still here.

All EU decisions are made for the economical interest of Germany industry. Even in subjects that are surprising, like regulation of chemical products.

How do you plan to fund anything without our money?

Don't be surprised than there is an anti-German behaviour in Europe, if the Germans continue to be that arrogant.

[k-onmmunist]

I agree that a smaller EU would work much better, really I agree with most of what you guys said. But what I also know is that there is no way tiny countries like those that compose EU can durably preserve their Welfare State and standards of living against the pressure of globalized corporations. So, like it or not, the EU is the only blueprint we have for a concentration of countries defending together their common interests. Much leaves to be desired, but fixing it remains our only hope.

the answer is to change globalization, not to sacrifice the welfare model

You can't really "change" globalization, nor can you stop it. The only thing we can do is make sure political globalization catches up with economic globalization. And EU, as awful as it might be, is the best vehicle we have for that purpose.

i don't believe that for a second - look at the 1870-1914 model of globalization. while i'm not saying it would be a good idea to have a world war to prevent it going any further, it's by no means irreversible.

What do you mean exactly? Yes, States used to have more leverage in the global economy at that time, but that was because economic globalization wasn't yet brought to all its logical conclusions. What has happened since then in the economic sphere was destined to happen. The biggest mistake was that the State didn't see it coming soon enough to counteract this, or were unwilling to because of national pride.

i don't believe in talking of globalization mystically though, as if it was always going to happen and there's nothing that can stop it. globalization has simply become the extension of corporatism outside of the triad of western europe-japan-the united states. globalization as in the opening of markets and such has always been happening, it's just varied as to what degree throughout history. it's feasible that leverage could be regained by the state if they were to cease their fear of taking on large corporations. a hundred years ago, we used to bust companies that refused to play fair and that ate up the market. now we hand them taxpayers money and declare them 'too big to fail'.

[Franzl]

we'll see how long the continent can tolerate the monetary hit without us.

Right, because your (yeah, Cameron's, but still) insane austerity policies have been helping the EU economy a lot lately...

well, i can agree on his policies being insane, but the uk still pays in an absolute fortune. i fail to see how left wingers can defend the european union though, given its anti-democratic nature and the corporatism involved. they ruled against workers rights in the laval and viking cases because workers rights violates 'free movement of labour' due to all countries having to comply (though admittedly, britain's ridiculous union laws don't help)

There is a difference between supporting the idea of EU and supporting the EU as it is.

i acknowledge that. the problem as i see it is that the european union is too inflexible to reform without drastic measures.

It might be... But my philosophy has never been "when something doesn't work well enough, let's break it", but rather "let's fix it to the best we can". If all left-wingers who are dissatisfied with the current State of the EU joined together in demanding a major overhaul of the EU's governance and policies, we'd have a fair chance to succeed.

You're really naive if you think than anything can happen while Queen Merkel (or Germans, really) are still here.

All EU decisions are made for the economical interest of Germany industry. Even in subjects that are surprising, like regulation of chemical products.

How do you plan to fund anything without our money?

Don't be surprised than there is an anti-German behaviour in Europe, if the Germans continue to be that arrogant.

I don't really see much anti-German "behaviour" except from the countries that want more money. I view the position that we're obligated to support them as arrogant, quite honestly.

We can argue all day on whether it makes sense to spend more money on it. All in all, it might be the least bad option, but you really should get rid of this sense of entitlement.

[Gustaf]

I like how we've now seen bashing of both Germany and England, incidentally two of the main contributors to the EU in economic terms, and yet people go on as if the EU has a future and all will be well.

The EU is fundamentally flawed and anyone thinking that it's the answer to any of the modern world's problems is kidding themselves, imo.

You can't just wish away reality, after all.

[Swedish Rainbow Capitalist Cheese]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

But, but... Hollande was suppose to save the EU and turn it in to the Socialist super-state it was never suppouse to be. But if we just bring all the left-wingers together...

*Sigh* I'll never comprahend how Antonio continues to be so naive and detached when it comes to the European Union. Electing Hollande wasn't going to change things. Had SYRIZA won in Greece it wouldn't have changed things.

You will never succed in the goal to turn the EU into a welfere federation, because people don't want that and you will never get close to the support you need to achive that. The European Federation is a dream of a small elite, the dream of a Socialist European Federation is the dream of an even smaller group.

[Antonio the Sixth]

We can have this discussion over and over again, SwedishCheese. Please, I am well aware that my ideas are out of the mainstream and that the system I support isn't likely to become reality anytime soon. I still think it is possible, little step by little step, to advance a federalist and Social-Democratic vision of the EU, and gradually improve the severely flawed union we now have in order to build something better out of it. Is this naive? Maybe. But I also think it's the only alternative we have to the utter economic and social collapse of Europe. I'd rather cling to an unlikely utopia than resign myself to this nightmare.