In New Hampshire, transgender 3rd grader is now allowed to go to school as girl

[afleitch]

And yes, there are posts in this thread (earlier on) which are purely bigoted, and if the moderators want to be consistent about not allowing bigoted statements, will do something about that fact.

Any mod responses?

The offending posts have been reported. As a moderator I find some of the comments here about transgendered individuals at least misinformed and at worst downright apalling.

[Inverted Things]

I'm perfectly OK with the gender-queer aspect of the child, and it is a good thing to have the school allow the kid to wear the clothes he/she (ya know, the english language really needs a gender neutral word here) wants to wear.

Further, if the kid wants to be addressed as a girl, it's a good thing that the school is accommodating that.

The bathroom thing I'm just not sure about.  Separate bathrooms for boys and girls... There's a purpose for that, and a part of that purpose is that it is off-putting for a person to see the opposite sex's genitalia in a place where they must expose their own.  Fact is, this kid has a penis, and so the kid probably ought to use the bathroom for people with penises.

[後援会]

Most trans individuals also hate being lumped in - ask a trans person if they'd rather the "t" in lgbt be its own movement, and 9 out of 10 will say yes.  Not only does it mislead those who don't really understand (which is most people, because society rarely addresses it) into thinking it's sexual, the glb throws the t under the bus whenever convenient for the movement.  Many trans people are quite frustrated by both these facts.

I've actually always thought it quite puzzling that a lot of people who are pushing for the legislation that turn "gays" into a protected class pointedly refuse to do so in regards for gender identity. Or something. Never really understood it, but it's not really an issue that I care that much about anyways.

"Teaching children to conform" often causes a great deal of emotional strife for them.

Teaching many other worthwhile does as well. Oh well.

They have just as many gays in every culture, Konkee.  They're just visible or not depending on the level of oppression.

It isn't so different. There are tops and bottoms in many Western gay couples.  This article I liinked notes taht in private many of the rules about 'gender identity' adopted by Tom/Dee couples are not always strictly adhered to.

At least from what I've seen, Top/bottom=/=masculine/feminine in most countries. The Tom/Dee dynamic is strictly gendered in a way that isn't common or the norm in the West. What I'm saying is that it is a precisely a mistake to apply the Western term of "gay" to non-Western cultures because sexual orientation is socially constructed in a very different way. Of course, there are probably several people who adopt Western norms over traditional norms and would call themselves as such, but it's still ultimately a foreign influence, which is where the bulk of my suspicion comes from.

I'm perfectly OK with the gender-queer aspect of the child, and it is a good thing to have the school allow the kid to wear the clothes he/she (ya know, the english language really needs a gender neutral word here) wants to wear.

Further, if the kid wants to be addressed as a girl, it's a good thing that the school is accommodating that.

The bathroom thing I'm just not sure about.  Separate bathrooms for boys and girls... There's a purpose for that, and a part of that purpose is that it is off-putting for a person to see the opposite sex's genitalia in a place where they must expose their own.  Fact is, this kid has a penis, and so the kid probably ought to use the bathroom for people with penises.

Pssh. When your language has different 1st person pronouns, particles, and speech patterns based on gender, you can complain. Though at least from the perspective of writing in English, I'd love a gender neutral pronoun. Especially when you're talking about hypothetical people that could be of either gender.

Anyways, it's not like girls go into the bathroom to compare vaginal circumference. I assume he would be using a bathroom stall. So I don't really see the problem here. Unless his goal for using the girl's bathroom is to show everyone his penis. Which at that point, would indicate far more serious problems than crossdressing.

[Spanish Moss]

Which at that point, would indicate far more serious problems than crossdressing.

Crossdressing is a problem?

[courts]

The bigotry in here is alarming - "I weep your downfall", "disgusting" - if this were equivalently about another minority, blacks, gays, etc somehow that would be less acceptable.  Now that it's becoming more and more unacceptable to be anti-gay (though there's still a LONG way to go), trans individuals are the last group it's okay to openly have a problem with and not be identified as promoting a bigoted viewpoint.

That is what is disgusting, if not morally criminal.

it is not in any way equivalent to being black, how could it be? nobody is denying that a black man is black (well probably..). it's not equivalent to liking the same sex either, that's just attraction as has been pointed out. many, many dysphorics identify as "straight" anyway. it's a completely different situation because the exterior does not match the interior and there are just no easy solutions when it comes to treating that.

[Spanish Moss]

The bigotry in here is alarming - "I weep your downfall", "disgusting" - if this were equivalently about another minority, blacks, gays, etc somehow that would be less acceptable.  Now that it's becoming more and more unacceptable to be anti-gay (though there's still a LONG way to go), trans individuals are the last group it's okay to openly have a problem with and not be identified as promoting a bigoted viewpoint.

That is what is disgusting, if not morally criminal.

it is not in any way equivalent to being black, how could it be? nobody is denying that a black man is black (well probably..). it's not equivalent to liking the same sex either, that's just attraction as has been pointed out. many, many dysphorics identify as "straight" anyway. it's a completely different situation because the exterior does not match the interior and there are just no easy solutions when it comes to treating that.

That doesn't somehow make it less bigoted or ignorant.

[courts]

what i am getting at is that it's a significantly different situation because dysphoria really is a mental health issue. now of course that may not be what's going on here. maybe the boy just likes wearing a dress. which honestly i don't think is the end of the world. but the fact remains we are still talking about a life-long identity disorder that nowadays is being treated with hormone blockers, hormones that result in permanent sterility/dependence on them for life and radical surgery. that is what i suspect most people are really disturbed by here - the association with 'transitioning.'

[Bleach Blonde Bad Built Butch Bodies for Biden]

Disgusting. Just digsuting.

Oh, New Hampshire, one of America's greatest states, I weep for your downfall.  You were the ninth state that was needed to ratify the Constitution and you gave us Nathaniel Berry, Jonathan Daniels, Judd Gregg, John Sununu, and so many other great Americans.  You were one of only six states to vote for Herbert Hoover over FDR in 1932.  You stood at the forefront of civil rights, the Republican Party, small government, low taxes, and Yankee conservatism.  But now you have legalized gay marriage and elected far-left Democrats at increasing rates.  But there is still hope for you, New Hampshire.  You are still a swing state, and you are on the cusps of electing Ovide Lamontagne as your Governor.  Oh, fair and noble Granite State, please do not relinquish your swing state status or succumb to liberal utopianism like your New England neighbors.  The Republican revival in New England begins with you. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHU6K47qgc8

What does this clip have to do with my mini-rant?

I found the dramatic overtone of your rant rather humorous.

[tik 🪀✨]

This is a beautiful, relieving, and reassuring thing. Gender identify acceptance and understanding still have a long way to go, but this is still a very healthy attitude on the part of new Hampshire.

[後援会]

Which at that point, would indicate far more serious problems than crossdressing.

Crossdressing is a problem?

Depending on the context. As a mere hobby? I wouldn't think so. On the other hand, Gender Identity Disorder....well...I would think very few people willingly choose to be transsexual or anything.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2012/09/25/report-transgender-3rd-grader-will-be-allowed-to-use-girls-bathroom/
 
Interesting. Do third graders even know if they're transgender? Seems too young to me

Not in the theoretical sense of that label, but can a boy feel like they are really a girl inside? Sure.

Interesting that you don't usually hear about transgender females much (at least not in the media). I suspect it's because American culture has so much more leeway for the female in terms of gender norms.

[stegosaurus]

Gender indentity disorder (GID) is real. This has nothing to do with homosexuality or the politics surrounding it, no more than ADD or OCD should. This child should be studied and, if possible, treated.

[Spanish Moss]

Gender indentity disorder (GID) is real. This has nothing to do with homosexuality or the politics surrounding it, no more than ADD or OCD should. This child should be studied and, if possible, treated.

What do you mean by "treated"?  If you mean medicated to not be trans, I'd like to remind you that it wasn't that long ago homosexuality was in the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) and was viewed as something wrong and a mental disorder for which a treatment needs to be found.

If you are actually asserting this child "isn't right in the head" (you may not word it that way) and needs treatment to be "normal" (again, you may not word it that way), what you say is degrading and entirely offensive at best.

[Spanish Moss]

Which at that point, would indicate far more serious problems than crossdressing.

Crossdressing is a problem?

Depending on the context. As a mere hobby? I wouldn't think so. On the other hand, Gender Identity Disorder....well...I would think very few people willingly choose to be transsexual or anything.

So if they're transsexual and it is a problem, you're clearly implying that being transsexual is a problem.

[Link]

"Obama's America."

Seriously though, I think that afleitch gets this right. Adults need to put aside any discomfort with issues of gender identity and sexuality for the sake of their children's health and happiness.

Errr...  Third grader, dude.  There should be no sexuality in the third grade.  A girl/boy can have a tasteful short haircut wear pants and go by the name Leslie or Pat... and then get their head in the books.  The countries that are beating us in Math and Science are not obsessing about Third Graders' "sexuality."

[後援会]

So if they're transsexual and it is a problem, you're clearly implying that being transsexual is a problem.

Yes. And? Even if we lived in a perfectly tolerant society in every single possible way, being transsexual is an undesirable outcome. Because we don't have magic that can randomly make people swap genders.

Plus, maybe I come from a different cultural background, but I've always found it ridiculous how the first response to every problem is "MEDICATION!" "My kid is bored by boring class! Medication! My kid doesn't like a certain vegetable. Diet medication! My kid is in a bad mood. Medication!"

Anyways, I would classify homosexuality and transsexualism as "problems" in that we don't want them to happen to us. I certainly would rather not my child be exclusively homosexual or transsexual. On the other hand, I would also want them to be 6'5, a super-genius, blindingly handsome, etc, things that are unlikely to happen.

[Link]

Anyways, I would classify homosexuality and transsexualism as "problems" in that we don't want them to happen to us. I certainly would rather not my child be exclusively homosexual or transsexual. On the other hand, I would also want them to be 6'5, a super-genius, blindingly handsome, etc, things that are unlikely to happen.

I don't want to be another race... does that make other races a "problem?"

[afleitch]

Anyways, I would classify homosexuality and transsexualism as "problems" in that we don't want them to happen to us. I certainly would rather not my child be exclusively homosexual or transsexual.

What a sh-t. If they were be thankful that they were alive, well and hopefully going to meet the right person someday.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

So if they're transsexual and it is a problem, you're clearly implying that being transsexual is a problem.

Yes. And? Even if we lived in a perfectly tolerant society in every single possible way, being transsexual is an undesirable outcome. Because we don't have magic that can randomly make people swap genders.

Uh, sexual reassignment surgery?

[後援会]

I don't want to be another race... does that make other races a "problem?"

A fallacious analogy. Race is a social construct with no hard biological basis. Incomparable to biological sex.

What a sh-t. If they were be thankful that they were alive, well and hopefully going to meet the right person someday.

You say that as if that action was mutually exclusive with the previously quoted stance. It's one to thing to ask someone to tolerate a certain trait and be supportive towards those that have to deal with it - it is an entirely different thing to chastise people into acknowledging such a trait as either positive or desirable. I would say that this holds true for any disability.

Uh, sexual reassignment surgery?

Is not a panacea. Sex has much greater of a biological basis than merely having a penis, vagina, or certain hormones. The day they can get someone who was born male pop out babies is the day I'll consider it as such. That day might actually come one day, and it would probably be a good thing, but it hasn't happened yet.

[Link]

Anyways, I would classify homosexuality and transsexualism as "problems" in that we don't want them to happen to us. I certainly would rather not my child be exclusively homosexual or transsexual. On the other hand, I would also want them to be 6'5, a super-genius, blindingly handsome, etc, things that are unlikely to happen.

I don't want to be another race... does that make other races a "problem?"

A fallacious analogy. Race is a social construct with no hard biological basis. Incomparable to biological sex.

You didn't say "biological sex."  You said "homosexual or transsexual."  Homosexuality has even less "biological basis" than race... at least as far as we know at the moment.

[They not like us]

wtf i didn't know what genitals and genders were in 3rd grade

bullsh[inks]

[tik 🪀✨]

wtf i didn't know what genitals and genders were in 3rd grade

bullsh[inks]

Surely you knew that there were boys and girls and that there was a difference. You also likely felt a pressure from society to behave certain ways, like certain things, and aspire to be a certain way because of the basically automatic way parents, relatives, friends, television, and society as a whole treated you. It is sometimes forceful and other times very subtle. Being that it subconsciously felt 'right' you didn't even consider any other way of behaving. This is how we mold children into gender conformity. There isn't anything wrong with this 99% of the time, but others just know in the deepest recesses of our minds that this is the complete and undeniable opposite way we are. It starts extremely early in life and never goes away, causing huge amounts of distress. 

[Spanish Moss]

So if they're transsexual and it is a problem, you're clearly implying that being transsexual is a problem.

Yes. And? Even if we lived in a perfectly tolerant society in every single possible way, being transsexual is an undesirable outcome. Because we don't have magic that can randomly make people swap genders.

Uh, sexual reassignment surgery?

[後援会]

wtf i didn't know what genitals and genders were in 3rd grade

bullsh[inks]

What. Man, you were a sheltered kid. I mean, I thought I was sheltered because it took me until age 9 or 10 to stumble onto porn. But man.

So if they're transsexual and it is a problem, you're clearly implying that being transsexual is a problem.

Yes. And? Even if we lived in a perfectly tolerant society in every single possible way, being transsexual is an undesirable outcome. Because we don't have magic that can randomly make people swap genders.

Uh, sexual reassignment surgery?

Uh, sexual reassignment surgery?

Is not a panacea. Sex has much greater of a biological basis than merely having a penis, vagina, or certain hormones. The day they can get someone who was born male pop out babies is the day I'll consider it as such. That day might actually come one day, and it would probably be a good thing, but it hasn't happened yet.