Associated Press: Multiple People Shot Outside Empire State Building

[patrick1]

What if someone in the crowd had a gun? Obviously it's pointless with you guys, I just want to make a note.

They probably would have gotten themselves and others killed.... It is not some dopey tourists' job to police the streets.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Okay, gun lovers, have your pick then, either:

a) American Gun Laws are inadequate.

or

b) American society is irrevocably broken, producing only bi-weekly mass shootings and foreclosures.

You get to pick your (explanatory) poison!

I'm not a gun lover, but I do believe American society is irrevocably broken.

     Ignoring the truth value of (a), I really see no way to deny that (b) is in fact the case. This country is FUBAR. Actually, I'd suggest that every society is pretty badly broken; some are just worse than others.

[Vosem]

What if someone in the crowd had a gun? Obviously it's pointless with you guys, I just want to make a note.

Then the dice are rolled twice, instead of just once.

But...but if someone in the crowd had had a gun, that would have been the Good Guy, wearing the white hat!

I don't understand the reference. But, yes, if someone in the crowd had a gun, they could've defended themselves. From what I read (maybe I misinterpreted this), the shooter was just standing there and firing at people around him. A reasonably good shot (that is, not me) standing reasonably close shouldn't've had a problem.

What if someone in the crowd had a gun?

Yes the correct response to 911 should have been to let everyone take a machete into a plane.

The correct response to 9/11 was to arm airplane staff; pilots and co-pilots and stewardesses. With guns, not machetes. And teach them to use them.

You obviously haven't seen the abysmal hiring standards for pilots and co-pilots particularly on the regional airlines. Those guys and gals are sleep deprived and living on food stamps.  Sure I guess all that cocktail needs is firearms.  And flight attendants?!



Do we give them the gun before or after the beers?

You could make the same argument about police, but we give them guns. Slater was an isolated case, and keep in mind I'm also proposing the companies train their employees on how and in what circumstances to use them. And if we give pilots guns we can stop treating frequent flyers like criminals.

What if someone in the crowd had a gun? Obviously it's pointless with you guys, I just want to make a note.

They probably would have gotten themselves and others killed.... It is not some dopey tourists' job to police the streets.

It is a dopey tourist's job to protect themselves. Police exist but they are not omnipresent and they can't be omnipresent. Grumpy Gramps' signature is also a good example; guns are (obviously) more useful in a one-on-one attempted rape or mugging or animal attack than something like this, but, yes, a competent gun owner in the crowd could've saved lives, and it's delusional not to admit that.

[patrick1]

You watch too many movies, Vosem.  Cops are not omnipresent but they are not omniscient either. It would be excellent if cops had full situational awareness but that just isnt the case.  In this instance, the guy went up and blew his old co-worker away.  Some civ that is armed would have done nothing to stop this. Someone who tried to apprehend the suspect by drawing on the guy would have made them a target to a responding officer in a fluid situation.  More importantly the well meaning vigilante also makes everyone around him a target because cops can and do miss and bullets like to bounce around even on egress from a body. 

There is a reason most big city police unions support gun control and it is not the stuff of some paranoids' fantasy.

[J. J.]

According to Nightline, most of the people were hit by bullets fired by the police.  The NYT also notes this:  http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/08/24/nyregion/shooting-near-empire-state-building.html

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Does anyone have some hard facts to show we are actually getting more shootings or is it just they are getting more media coverage?

[patrick1]

Does anyone have some hard facts to show we are actually getting more shootings or is it just they are getting more media coverage?

Sadly, I think it might have more to do with the new and exciting venues.  Movie theater, Sikh temple, near major landmark- all breaking new ground for active shooters and thus breaking news  Today, if some dude just shot his old boss in Peoria it would not have gotten much coverage, imho. 

[後援会]

I truly, truly, truly do not care that much about any of these shootings. They're obviously sad, but I'm 100% sure more people died of preventable car accidents today. Or slipping on slippery baths. Or something else that happens everyday that nobody cares about. Even if people find the subject itself interesting for whatever reason, it's certainly not something I'm going to worry about, think suggests a "broken society", or that merits any kind of policy action or change in our political debate whatsoever when we clearly have much more important things to worry about. The numbers just aren't there.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

I truly, truly, truly do not care that much about any of these shootings. They're obviously sad, but I'm 100% sure more people died of preventable car accidents today. Or slipping on slippery baths. Or something else that happens everyday that nobody cares about. Even if people find the subject itself interesting for whatever reason, it's certainly not something I'm going to worry about, think suggests a "broken society", or that merits any kind of policy action or change in our political debate whatsoever when we clearly have much more important things to worry about. The numbers just aren't there.

So then why do these things only happen in the United States (on a regular basis)? What does that tell you?

[Link]

What if someone in the crowd had a gun?

Yes the correct response to 911 should have been to let everyone take a machete into a plane.

The correct response to 9/11 was to arm airplane staff; pilots and co-pilots and stewardesses. With guns, not machetes. And teach them to use them.

You obviously haven't seen the abysmal hiring standards for pilots and co-pilots particularly on the regional airlines. Those guys and gals are sleep deprived and living on food stamps.  Sure I guess all that cocktail needs is firearms.  And flight attendants?!



Do we give them the gun before or after the beers?

You could make the same argument about police, but we give them guns.

The hiring, internal regulating, promotion, and accountability standards of the NYPD are not the same as those at Continental Express.  Are you kidding?  You can make Captain at Continental Express within MONTHS.  Who comes out of the police academy in New York and makes Captain in months?  So you think US Airways Express has an internal affairs department?

Slater was an isolated case, and keep in mind I'm also proposing the companies train their employees on how and in what circumstances to use them.

So if you aren't sliding down the escape slide with two beers in hand you are fine to handle a gun at 30,000 feet?  I dated a flight attendant and I wouldn't want her to have a gun on the ground let alone at 30,000 feet in a pressurized tin can full of people.  That's insane.

And if we give pilots guns we can stop treating frequent flyers like criminals.

As mentioned before the training standards at some of the regional airlines have been abysmal.  Let's concentrate on training these people to be pilots and leave the gun slinging to the pros.  Besides there are simpler safer solutions.  Bullet proofing and reinforcing the cockpit door makes the chances of another 911 drop to zero.  Another solution is bringing our troops home and leaving other countries alone.  Those are too easy solutions that don't involve giving a flight attendant a gun.

[J. J.]

This is the actual story:

Disgruntled man shoots ex-coworker; police shoot him, and nine bystanders.

[Vosem]

What if someone in the crowd had a gun?

Yes the correct response to 911 should have been to let everyone take a machete into a plane.

The correct response to 9/11 was to arm airplane staff; pilots and co-pilots and stewardesses. With guns, not machetes. And teach them to use them.

You obviously haven't seen the abysmal hiring standards for pilots and co-pilots particularly on the regional airlines. Those guys and gals are sleep deprived and living on food stamps.  Sure I guess all that cocktail needs is firearms.  And flight attendants?!



Do we give them the gun before or after the beers?

You could make the same argument about police, but we give them guns.

The hiring, internal regulating, promotion, and accountability standards of the NYPD are not the same as those at Continental Express.  Are you kidding?  You can make Captain at Continental Express within MONTHS.  Who comes out of the police academy in New York and makes Captain in months?  So you think US Airways Express has an internal affairs department?

You're literally putting your life in the captain's hands and you don't trust him to have a gun? Also, notice that I'm also proposing pilots are trained to use guns. It's the logical solution, and not letting pilots (who, again, literally have your life in their hands) have guns is an irrational hoplophobia.

Slater was an isolated case, and keep in mind I'm also proposing the companies train their employees on how and in what circumstances to use them.

So if you aren't sliding down the escape slide with two beers in hand you are fine to handle a gun at 30,000 feet?  I dated a flight attendant and I wouldn't want her to have a gun on the ground let alone at 30,000 feet in a pressurized tin can full of people.  That's insane.

No, it's not. Why is it insane? Are pilots and flight attendants somehow specially poor candidates to handle guns?

And if we give pilots guns we can stop treating frequent flyers like criminals.

As mentioned before the training standards at some of the regional airlines have been abysmal.  Let's concentrate on training these people to be pilots and leave the gun slinging to the pros.

The point is to make pilots pros. Do you think people (or police officers, or soldiers, or anybody who can competently use a gun) were born 'pros'? They were trained.

  Besides there are simpler safer solutions.  Bullet proofing and reinforcing the cockpit door makes the chances of another 911 drop to zero.

You could still have somebody confront the passengers with a gun.

  Another solution is bringing our troops home and leaving other countries alone.  Those are too easy solutions that don't involve giving a flight attendant a gun.

And just leave dictators in charge of our energy sources. Gotcha. Giving flight attendants guns is the easy solution, and how you don't realize that is truly bizarre. How are they more or less volatile than police officers on a night shift? Or any US citizen who has a gun and happens to be frustrated?

My personal advice to you would be to buy a gun and get lessons from somewhere. This particular belief would dissipate quickly.

[Link]

This is the actual story:

Disgruntled man shoots ex-coworker; police shoot him, and nine bystanders.

J. J.  I know you are new around here but do you have a link or should we just take your pronouncements on faith?

I read this...

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Link.

[Link]

You're literally putting your life in the captain's hands and you don't trust him to have a gun?

I don't trust them to do surgery on me either.


I don't "trust" the airlines either.  It's just when my boss tells me I have to be in Miami in three days I have no choice.

Also, notice that I'm also proposing pilots are trained to use guns.

Why don't we concentrate on training them to FLY PLANES first and leave the gun stuff to the experts okay?  We are talking about regional airlines where they are promoting people to CAPTAIN within MONTHS.  That's inadequate training to fly a plane... let alone fly a plane and sling bullets at the same time.

So if you aren't sliding down the escape slide with two beers in hand you are fine to handle a gun at 30,000 feet?  I dated a flight attendant and I wouldn't want her to have a gun on the ground let alone at 30,000 feet in a pressurized tin can full of people.  That's insane.

No, it's not. Why is it insane? Are pilots and flight attendants somehow specially poor candidates to handle guns?

They are as poor as any other person chosen at random to handle a gun at 30,000 feet in a pressurized tin can full of people.

As mentioned before the training standards at some of the regional airlines have been abysmal.  Let's concentrate on training these people to be pilots and leave the gun slinging to the pros.

The point is to make pilots pros. Do you think people (or police officers, or soldiers, or anybody who can competently use a gun) were born 'pros'? They were trained.

99.9% of cops don't' have to fly planes or train to shoot guns in pressurized tin cans at 30,000 feet full of people.  We have failed to train pilots to do their primary job and your suggestion is to train them to do policing even the average policeman doesn't do?!

Reinforce cabin doors, hire air marshals, and train the pilots to fly.  That is a lot safer and will save a lot more lives than giving some dizzy flight attendant a gun.

This was from two years ago, almost a DECADE after 911...

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Link.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Clearly the correct response to events like these is to give everybody assault rifles.

[Vosem]

You're literally putting your life in the captain's hands and you don't trust him to have a gun?

I don't trust them to do surgery on me either.

Accurately firing a gun requires rather less training than surgery. A fair point, though, for once.

Also, notice that I'm also proposing pilots are trained to use guns.

Why don't we concentrate on training them to FLY PLANES first and leave the gun stuff to the experts okay?  We are talking about regional airlines where they are promoting people to CAPTAIN within MONTHS.  That's inadequate training to fly a plane... let alone fly a plane and sling bullets at the same time.

Being able to keep the passengers safe is an integral part of flying the plane, no?

So if you aren't sliding down the escape slide with two beers in hand you are fine to handle a gun at 30,000 feet?  I dated a flight attendant and I wouldn't want her to have a gun on the ground let alone at 30,000 feet in a pressurized tin can full of people.  That's insane.

No, it's not. Why is it insane? Are pilots and flight attendants somehow specially poor candidates to handle guns?

They are as poor as any other person chosen at random to handle a gun at 30,000 feet in a pressurized tin can full of people.

If there is an attempted hijacking, somebody's got to do it. Even when given a gun, pretty much everybody won't go on a murderous rampage. Neither will pilots.

As mentioned before the training standards at some of the regional airlines have been abysmal.  Let's concentrate on training these people to be pilots and leave the gun slinging to the pros.

The point is to make pilots pros. Do you think people (or police officers, or soldiers, or anybody who can competently use a gun) were born 'pros'? They were trained.

99.9% of cops don't' have to fly planes or train to shoot guns in pressurized tin cans at 30,000 feet full of people.  We have failed to train pilots to do their primary job and your suggestion is to train them to do policing even the average policeman doesn't do?!

Somebody's got to do it. That we have failed to adequately train pilots has nothing to do with it -- train them to fly planes and also train them to use a gun. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Reinforce cabin doors, hire air marshals, and train the pilots to fly.  That is a lot safer and will save a lot more lives than giving some dizzy flight attendant a gun.

Having an actual gun on board is the most sure way to prevent hijackings or crimes onboard. Somebody has to have one, and you can't background check every passenger successfully. Again, your belief that no flight attendant could use a gun is hopelessly hoplophobic.

This was from two years ago, almost a DECADE after 911...

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Link.

I agree with you that pilots need better and more training to fly planes. Learning to use a gun should be part of that.

Clearly the correct response to events like these is to give everybody assault rifles.

No, but people not knowing how to use guns and not knowing what they can do only makes people less safe, not more.

[後援会]

So then why do these things only happen in the United States (on a regular basis)? What does that tell you?

It's not surprising. High-profile suicides tend to be followed by a spree of copycat suicides. So I assume what is essentially a high-profile suicide-murder would be followed by a spree of copycat murder-suicides.

Anyways, it doesn't increase our death rate to something significantly above other nations. In fact, the impact is infinitesimal. Whatever it "tells me", I couldn't give a damn.

Too many people interested in politics are obsessed with fine-tuning society into whatever makes them feel better, as if they were playing SimCity or something, instead of soberly using the tools of public policy to broadly improve peoples' lives. And it's a shame.

[Link]

Having an actual gun on board is the most sure way to prevent hijackings...

No lock and secure the cockpit door.  Easy.

As mentioned before the training standards at some of the regional airlines have been abysmal.  Let's concentrate on training these people to be pilots and leave the gun slinging to the pros.

The point is to make pilots pros. Do you think people (or police officers, or soldiers, or anybody who can competently use a gun) were born 'pros'? They were trained.

99.9% of cops don't' have to fly planes or train to shoot guns in pressurized tin cans at 30,000 feet full of people.  We have failed to train pilots to do their primary job and your suggestion is to train them to do policing even the average policeman doesn't do?!

Somebody's got to do it.

No.  Lock and secure cockpit doors and have air marshals.  Leave the gun slinging to the pros.

This was from two years ago, almost a DECADE after 911...

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Link.

I agree with you that pilots need better and more training to fly planes. Learning to use a gun should be part of that.

Mmm... if someone isn't doing their job well the solution is not to give them a gun.  If you reread the articles that have been linked to that is precisely what caused this unfortunate situation.  Poor job performance and guns are a deadly cocktail.  What happened in Colorado?

Anyways, it doesn't increase our death rate to something significantly above other nations. In fact, the impact is infinitesimal. Whatever it "tells me", I couldn't give a damn.

You should make that a bumper sticker and run for office.

How many 911 have happened in the history of America?  So I guess you think spending hundreds of billions of dollars to go after Bin Laden was a total waste since the chances of any of us being a direct victim of a 911 attack is "infinitesimal?"  Is that what you are saying?

[Vosem]

Having an actual gun on board is the most sure way to prevent hijackings...

No lock and secure the cockpit door.  Easy.

If the plane is in the air and the hijackers have successfully smuggled weapons onto the aircraft (which, let's face it, is very possible because airport security is s**t)? It's not easy and it requires airplane staff to be able to respond with deadly force.

As mentioned before the training standards at some of the regional airlines have been abysmal.  Let's concentrate on training these people to be pilots and leave the gun slinging to the pros.

The point is to make pilots pros. Do you think people (or police officers, or soldiers, or anybody who can competently use a gun) were born 'pros'? They were trained.

99.9% of cops don't' have to fly planes or train to shoot guns in pressurized tin cans at 30,000 feet full of people.  We have failed to train pilots to do their primary job and your suggestion is to train them to do policing even the average policeman doesn't do?!

Somebody's got to do it.

No.  Lock and secure cockpit doors and have air marshals.  Leave the gun slinging to the pros.

The pilots should be pros. That way everyone (including you, whose boss wants you in Miami) is safer.

This was from two years ago, almost a DECADE after 911...

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Link.

I agree with you that pilots need better and more training to fly planes. Learning to use a gun should be part of that.

Mmm... if someone isn't doing their job well the solution is not to give them a gun.  If you reread the articles that have been linked to that is precisely what caused this unfortunate situation.  Poor job performance and guns are a deadly cocktail.  What happened in Colorado?

So obviously we shouldn't let people have guns. In Colorado a crazy person went on a massacre, which wasn't, as I understand, linked to job performance.

Anyways, it doesn't increase our death rate to something significantly above other nations. In fact, the impact is infinitesimal. Whatever it "tells me", I couldn't give a damn.

You should make that a bumper sticker and run for office.

How many 911 have happened in the history of America?  So I guess you think spending hundreds of billions of dollars to go after Bin Laden was a total waste since the chances of any of us being a direct victim of a 911 attack is "infinitesimal?"  Is that what you are saying?

It is infinitesimal, but we should guard against it anyway.

[後援会]

You should make that a bumper sticker and run for office.

How many 911 have happened in the history of America?  So I guess you think spending hundreds of billions of dollars to go after Bin Laden was a total waste since the chances of any of us being a direct victim of a 911 attack is "infinitesimal?"  Is that what you are saying?

Luckily, I have no future in electoral politics. Hatch Act and all.

And yes, from my experience in foreign policy, yes, I personally believe the United States overreacted to the 9/11 attacks under the pressure of public opinion.

[Sbane]

This is the actual story:

Disgruntled man shoots ex-coworker; police shoot him, and nine bystanders.

Looks like an excellent argument against people going all vigilante justice on shooters. If a cop can't take him down without injuring others, what chance does some amateur have?

[Vosem]

This is the actual story:

Disgruntled man shoots ex-coworker; police shoot him, and nine bystanders.

Looks like an excellent argument against people going all vigilante justice on shooters. If a cop can't take him down without injuring others, what chance does some amateur have?

If an experienced shooter with a gun were in the crowd...

Obviously amateurs shouldn't just start shooting willy-nilly.

[Link]

So obviously we shouldn't let people have guns. In Colorado a crazy person went on a massacre, which wasn't, as I understand, linked to job performance.

The guy was a PhD candidate and as with all PhD candidates he was paid a stipend for his work.  He got poor performance reviews and failed an oral exam.  He was dismissed just prior to going on his rampage.

If someone is performing poorly at their job giving them a gun is not a good idea.

[Franzl]

I truly, truly, truly do not care that much about any of these shootings. They're obviously sad, but I'm 100% sure more people died of preventable car accidents today. Or slipping on slippery baths. Or something else that happens everyday that nobody cares about. Even if people find the subject itself interesting for whatever reason, it's certainly not something I'm going to worry about, think suggests a "broken society", or that merits any kind of policy action or change in our political debate whatsoever when we clearly have much more important things to worry about. The numbers just aren't there.

So then why do these things only happen in the United States (on a regular basis)? What does that tell you?

That's the price you have to pay for freedom.

[Joe Republic]

It seems a certain fifteen year old has been watching Air Force One a little too much.

Oh and by the way, this thread is awful and so are all the people in it.  That is all.