Let's discuss Mormonism.

[Zioneer]

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/12/06/1295941/mormon-churchs-new-homosexuality-resource-tells-gays-to-be-chaste-and-hopeful/?mobile=nc

Bit of PR work by the church here but this part striking:

'We believe that with an eternal perspective, a person’s attraction to the same sex can be addressed and borne as a mortal test. It should not be viewed as a permanent condition. An eternal perspective beyond the immediacy of this life’s challenges offers hope. Though some people, including those resisting same-sex attraction, may not have the opportunity to marry a person of the opposite sex in this life, a just God will provide them with ample opportunity to do so in the next. We can all live life in the full context of who we are, which is much broader than sexual attraction.'

Despite the fact that it is an extraordinarily offensive thing to say, I'm intrigued as to what theological gymnastics was applied to reach that conclusion?

The theological gymnastics of "we need good PR without invalidating any of our previous doctrine".

Is there any preexisting basis for the conclusion or is this new revelation?

It's based off the basic premise of "you'll have a chance in the next life for most things" that pops up in LDS theology frequently. I can't name specific doctrines off the top of my head, but there's basis for that, though not previously applied to gay people.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/12/06/1295941/mormon-churchs-new-homosexuality-resource-tells-gays-to-be-chaste-and-hopeful/?mobile=nc

Bit of PR work by the church here but this part striking:

'We believe that with an eternal perspective, a person’s attraction to the same sex can be addressed and borne as a mortal test. It should not be viewed as a permanent condition. An eternal perspective beyond the immediacy of this life’s challenges offers hope. Though some people, including those resisting same-sex attraction, may not have the opportunity to marry a person of the opposite sex in this life, a just God will provide them with ample opportunity to do so in the next. We can all live life in the full context of who we are, which is much broader than sexual attraction.'

Despite the fact that it is an extraordinarily offensive thing to say, I'm intrigued as to what theological gymnastics was applied to reach that conclusion?

The theological gymnastics of "we need good PR without invalidating any of our previous doctrine".

Is there any preexisting basis for the conclusion or is this new revelation?

It's based off the basic premise of "you'll have a chance in the next life for most things" that pops up in LDS theology frequently. I can't name specific doctrines off the top of my head, but there's basis for that, though not previously applied to gay people.

I see. Thank you.

[Zioneer]

No problem. Any other questions?

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I'd like to know more about Churchball...

[Zioneer]

I'd like to know more about Churchball...

Haha, well, I'm an unathletic nerd, so I haven't participated much in it, but my older brother is a sports fanatic and loves playing churchball, so I suppose I can provide some expertise in it.

Like I said in the other thread, it's basically just basketball, the only real differences being that it always starts with a prayer, is usually on church property, and the attitude towards the rules is somewhat... relaxed. I exaggerate when I say "Mormon blood sport", but young LDS men really do take out their aggression in the game. More broken bones, bruises, and so forth happen in that than football, then even the more peaceful games of rugby (which many LDS young men like playing as well; we love the movie Forever Strong as a basic rule).

And there's the expectation that their moms/the doctor will clean them right up (since most Utah LDS folks are comfortably middle-class), so there's less hesitation in violence, even though LDS boys are raised to be upright and non-violent (which, heh, doesn't always work). If I may give an anecdote, my in-shape brother recently played a game of adult churchball, and arrived afterwards at my family's house not knowing how he had gotten there.

Turns out he had gotten a concussion from getting slammed to the ground by a 300+ pound Tongan guy built like a brick wall in his congregation (called "ward" in LDS terms for future reference) and simply kept on playing, driving to our house after he was done but not remembering how he had done so. And no one saw anything wrong with him getting a concussion; that's just how Churchball works. And it always begins and ends with a prayer of immense enthusiasm, earnestness, and piety. Really a uniquely (ultra-violent) Mormon thing.

As a side note; to prevent me from having to explain "ward" and so forth every time I make a religious post, perhaps I should make a glossary of LDS terms?

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I think a basic glossary would be very helpful.

[Zioneer]

I think a basic glossary would be very helpful.

Do you want it in this thread, or is this thread to cluttered for it (since most people wouldn't bother searching into the 7th or so page)?

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I think a basic glossary would be very helpful.

Do you want it in this thread, or is this thread to cluttered for it (since most people wouldn't bother searching into the 7th or so page)?

Could you edit the first post in the thread to include it? Because that's what I would do were this thread 'Let's discuss mainline Protestantism'.

[Zioneer]

Edited the post with as much LDS topics as I could think of at the moment. If I talk about more LDS topics, I'll add them to the beginning post as I explain.

[Seattle]

How strictly do most Mormons take the ban on caffinated tea/coffee (or even alcohol)?

I ask because there are Muslims who do drink alcohol on occasion.

[Zioneer]

How strictly do most Mormons take the ban on caffinated tea/coffee (or even alcohol)?

I ask because there are Muslims who do drink alcohol on occasion.

Mormons take it very seriously, probably even more seriously than Muslims do these days (besides Senator Crapo, of course). If you drink alcohol as a Mormon, you're shunned until you stop doing it. Besides the Mariott hotels, alcohol is not usually served at Mormon-owned restaurants and hotels. Missionaries are told to (politely) refuse alcohol, even if doing so would prevent a conversion.

During the early history of the church, even after it became a restriction, alcohol was drunken more frequently; Joseph Smith, the prophet who gave the restriction, imbibed on occasion (antagonistic ex-Mormons like to claim that he did it after sermons teaching about the restriction), and Brigham Young owned a saloon. It really came into prominence after polygamy was ended. After we stopped practicing plural marriage, our dietary code became our dominant cultural indicator. One of the prophets (Joseph F Smith, who was the original Joseph's nephew) even advocated refraining from eating meat at all.

In any case, from what I understand, some Mormons in Idaho (which I'm guessing you're implying with your post) have a "nudge-nudge wink wink" under-the-table attitude towards drinking alcohol, but it is definitely dissolved of publicly by all Mormons.

With tea and coffee, it's still disapproved of, but not as vehemently as alcohol. It's more of a "you know you really shouldn't..." than a "this is vile" feeling. Herbal teas and non-caffeinated coffee is imbibed heavily by a lot of Mormons, and that's considered a-okay. One big change in the Word of Wisdom dietary code done this year is that the LDS Church clarified that caffeinated sodas are fine, as the revelation itself refers to "hot drinks" (tea and coffee).

[Seattle]

Okay, thanks.

Also, why is it mainly men that do missionary work? (Also, is it a requirement, I know very little about Mormonism).

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Okay, thanks.

Also, why is it mainly men that do missionary work? (Also, is it a requirement, I know very little about Mormonism).

The age at which men may go on missionary work is lower than that for women.  So while for men it was something that could be done between high school and college, for women it generally needed to be done after college, if at all. (Just recently the the women's age has been lowered, but it will still be higher than men.)

[Zioneer]

Mormonism is a male-dominated religion that started in mid-1800s male-dominated culture (and to be honest, has only advanced to the 1950s in most ways), and it's really seen as what men should do.

Missionary work isn't technically a requirement, but they highly encourage it, and to be considered a "good Mormon man", you basically have to do it. And as a side note, you don't get to choose where you go; the First Presidency of the Church are said to pray over where each missionary will go, but I'm pretty sure the lower-level leaders mostly decide it themselves. Thankfully, if you have a disability or special needs (autism, and such), then they tend to understand, and give you a "service" mission, mostly helping in the church-owned Family History Library and all that. Since I have Aspergers and a host of physical health problems, I'm fairly sure I'll have a service mission.

If you want to know more about how a mission tends to work, watch The Other Side of Heaven, a very good movie about the struggles of a missionary in Tonga.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Have you noticed ever some sort of "Mormon accent"? Supposedly Mormons often tend to talk in a very folksy manner, like how they did in Napoleon Dynamite. I should listen if I run into some missionaries again.

[Zioneer]

Have you noticed ever some sort of "Mormon accent"? Supposedly Mormons often tend to talk in a very folksy manner, like how they did in Napoleon Dynamite. I should listen if I run into some missionaries again.

That's more of the Utah accent, but yeah. We don't pronounce the "T"s in words like mountain, kitten, mitten, and etc. Also, we pronounce "milk" as "melk". We're also really nasally. Like a cross between the Minnesota accent and the California accent.

[Zioneer]

By the way, I'm getting a book in the mail called Chosen People, Promised Land, which talks about Mormonism in Hawaii. I should be getting it in the next 1-3 days, so after I get it, I should be able to answer questions about the affect Mormons have had on Hawaii.

One random note of interest I can tell you now is that Hawaii being a state is partially the fault of the Mormons. Y'see, there was this modern adventurer type named Walter M Gibson. Apparently he liked to run around doing anything and everything, and eventually he joined the LDS Church and was sent to build a Mormon colony in Hawaii. He did so in Lana'i, but was excommunicated a short while later for preaching false doctrine (though until that book arrives, I won't know exactly what he taught), embezzlement of church funds, and improper administration of the colony. From what I understand, he seized half of the colony, and expelled anyone who disagreed with him or his splinter church.

After that, he angles for secular power, and rises through the ranks before becoming Prime Minister of Hawaii. With his characteristic over-dramatics, he tries to convince the Hawaiian monarch to create a "Pacific Empire", but whatever scheme he cooks up with the King falls through, and he is deposed and forced to flee the islands. Walter M Gibson dies penniless. However, the damage to the monarchy (through revolution and such) is done, and within the next decade, Hawai'i is annexed to the United States. If Gibson had never been to Hawaii, maybe else would've come along, but I do find it hilarious that I can claim that it is (partially) the Church's fault that Hawaii is part of America.

[Torie]

What is the religious/cultural reason Mormons have such large families still to this day, particularly inasmuch as the LDS allows the use of birth control as I understand it?  And how does the LDS church induce couples to make such a huge sacrifice, financial and otherwise?  Folks in the LDS just seem so usually willing to hew to those in authority, in a nation whose folk culture is to distrust authority. In that regard, I heard somewhere that a disproportionate percentage of LDS women are on anti-depressents. Is that true?

[Zioneer]

What is the religious/cultural reason Mormons have such large families still to this day, particularly inasmuch as the LDS allows the use of birth control as I understand it?  And how does the LDS church induce couples to make such a huge sacrifice, financial and otherwise?  Folks in the LDS just seem so usually willing to hew to those in authority, in a nation whose folk culture is to distrust authority. In that regard, I heard somewhere that a disproportionate percentage of LDS women are on anti-depressents. Is that true?

Well, for one, we take the commandment to "multiply and replenish the Earth" very seriously. Most Mormons have grown up with large families, and they like fulfilling the commandment while having a strong safety net in case they mess up, which is what having a large family gives them.

Birth control isn't really used, even in marriage (which is the only time in which it's allowed), and it's frowned upon by church members.

The LDS Church teaches that if you endure hardship, you will later earn blessings appropriate to your sacrifice; so if you faithfully pay tithing, you'll happen across and financially positive situation (getting a good job, or happening across money that no one claims even after you ask everyone). The Church also allows struggling members and friendly non-members to pay incrementally for items at the church-owned chain thrift store Deseret Industries (DI). Basically, you take in a document called a "bishop's order", and it means the church pays for you to buy something from DI (so paying itself, essentially), which you can gradually pay off with no interest. It of course gives items and food free if you need it, but most people are too proud for that, and many live off of food stamps anyway. I work at a DI in Utah. The DIs usually help struggling families.

And the Church doesn't induce people to have large families, though they definitely encourage it. Butts in pews and all that.

And indeed, we are very willing to submit to religious authority, as even though everything our prophet says is not theologically doctrine, we treat it as it is. We really venerate our church leadership to an honestly unhealthy degree. Political authority.... Only if it's Republican. Most Church members are wary at best of Democrats, and distrust the Feds in any case. There's a thriving libertarian minority who distrust both sides, but even they are more moralistic than their counterparts in other states. In any case, that was actually one of the criticisms of Mormons in Illinois and Missouri; that in an era of swing-voting and distrust of authority, the Mormons trusted their leaders and voted as a bloc. The only time we were swing voters was in 1960, when Nixon won Utah by only 5,000 votes.

As for the anti-depressants thing, it's absolutely true (but hard to prove the exact percentages). We're also leading the nation in pornography usage. There's a reason we're sarcastically called "Happy Valley".

And anyway, I got that book on Mormonism in Hawaii the other day, so any questions about that will be answered, especially on the status of Native Hawaiians in LDS theology.

[Torie]

Great post, you "liberal" Mormon you. Thanks for taking the time to accommodate by "nosiness." How close are you to being in a state of heresy in The Church?  

[Zioneer]

Great post, you "liberal" Mormon you. Thanks for taking the time to accommodate by "nosiness." How close are you to being in a state of heresy in The Church?  

Well, I'm putting in my papers to apply for a two-year mission, so you tell me.

Side note; I'll repeat this year as I have at other times; the missionary does not choose where they get to go for the two-year mission. The Church leadership does, and they don't tell you until a few weeks or months after your papers are finished. One of my friends went to the Oklahoma City Spanish-speaking mission. He had no clue beforehand that he'd go there.

[Spamage]

What view do Mormons take on the Catholic Church? I remember reading somewhere that in the past a few described it as the Whore of Babylon. Also, I ask because some of my Mormon friends have asked me, upon finding out I was a Catholic, "Are Catholics Christians?"

[Darth Maul]

Im a Mormon and consider myself a Christian for what its worth but im not big on religion...

[Zioneer]

What view do Mormons take on the Catholic Church? I remember reading somewhere that in the past a few described it as the Whore of Babylon. Also, I ask because some of my Mormon friends have asked me, upon finding out I was a Catholic, "Are Catholics Christians?"

In the past, yeah, it was pretty much described as the Whore of Babylon, mainly because it was a scary hierarchical church that was already feared and hated by the New Englanders/Midwesterners that Joseph Smith grew up with and who were the main early converts to the LDS Church. The Book of Mormon never explicitly identifies the Whore of Babylon as the Catholic Church though, and in recent years we've had a lot of success converting people from majority Catholic countries (no idea why), so we've long since dropped that. It didn't really help early efforts in say, Italy, though.

And as for your friends asking if Catholics are Christians, were they brought up in a majority-Mormon area? It's possible that their parents had misconceptions which no one bothered to correct. Also, some Mormons (not any that I know personally though, and I live in the heart of Mormondom) may think of "Christianity" as Protestantism, as that's the kind that our religious narrative mostly concerns.

Im a Mormon and consider myself a Christian for what its worth but im not big on religion...

Really? Well then, huzzah for another Mormon on the forum! Even if you are conservative.

[afleitch]

Great post, you "liberal" Mormon you. Thanks for taking the time to accommodate by "nosiness." How close are you to being in a state of heresy in The Church?  

Well, I'm putting in my papers to apply for a two-year mission, so you tell me.

Side note; I'll repeat this year as I have at other times; the missionary does not choose where they get to go for the two-year mission. The Church leadership does, and they don't tell you until a few weeks or months after your papers are finished. One of my friends went to the Oklahoma City Spanish-speaking mission. He had no clue beforehand that he'd go there.

Suprises can be worth it. Being sent to Scotland is how my former Mormon friend met his boyfriend