Italy 2013: The official thread

[RogueBeaver]

There would be a left challenge to Renzi. Either Bersani or another man... Stefano [last name]. A primary would have to be held pre-election, pushing dissolution back a bit.

[Leftbehind]

Renzi winning PD leadership from this would really be the cherry on a horrible cake for the Italian Left.

[Antonio the Sixth]

There would be a left challenge to Renzi. Either Bersani or another man... Stefano [last name]. A primary would have to be held pre-election, pushing dissolution back a bit.

New elections can't happen before June anyway (and likely won't until September), so there will be plenty of time for the primary.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Renzi winning PD leadership from this would really be the cherry on a horrible cake for the Italian Left.

Because Bersani was such a bold left-wing hero...

[Leftbehind]

Renzi winning PD leadership from this would really be the cherry on a horrible cake for the Italian Left.

Because Bersani was such a bold left-wing hero...

Neither was John Smith, but he was infinitely better than Blair, for instance. Didn't realise you were a Renzi supporter(!). 

[Antonio the Sixth]

Renzi winning PD leadership from this would really be the cherry on a horrible cake for the Italian Left.

Because Bersani was such a bold left-wing hero...

Neither was John Smith, but he was infinitely better than Blair, for instance. Didn't realise you were a Renzi supporter(!). 

There is not an ounce of actual ideological difference between Bersani and Renzi. The only difference is that one is a stale and boring old party stalwart with no grasp on modern politics while the other could actually run a half-decent campaign and then do something once in power.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Syrup-tongued saviours tend not to keep very well once the bottle is opened.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Of course 'tuther guy is just a hack. A hacks hack, perhaps. But that isn't always worse, as such.

[Leftbehind]

Syrup-tongued saviours tend not to keep very well once the bottle is opened.

That's my fear. Besides, if Renzi is all that, once leader he'll be much harder for an actual left-leaning candidate to replace than a member of the ambition-less old-guard.

[RogueBeaver]

Antonio and other Italians can correct me if I'm wrong, but my read is that while Renzi puts more of an emphasis on centre than left in centre-left than Bersani, we're talking within or barely outside the MOE. Both men agree on broadbrush issues. Bersani tried labour market reform as a minister, with mixed success and probably with mixed enthusiasm as well. Difference is political skill as Antonio said. The sort of policymaking required needs to be sold and not imposed, Monti proves that beyond a shadow of a doubt. Bersani is clueless about both political and policy marketing.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Antonio and other Italians can correct me if I'm wrong, but my read is that while Renzi puts more of an emphasis on centre than left in centre-left than Bersani, we're talking within or barely outside the MOE. Both men agree on broadbrush issues. Bersani tried labour market reform as a minister, with mixed success and probably with mixed enthusiasm as well. Difference is political skill as Antonio said. The sort of policymaking required needs to be sold and not imposed, Monti proves that beyond a shadow of a doubt. Bersani is clueless about both political and policy marketing.

Indeed. The PD has long fallen into complete 3rd Way dominance, "ex-Communists" and "ex-Demochristians" alike. Actually, "third way" is a pretty nice way to put it. They're basically mainstream liberals in the ALDE sense. Bersani is a market liberal, Renzi is a market liberal, D'Alema is a market liberal, Bindi is a market liberal, Letta is a market liberal... really everybody besides a few "dangerous extremists" like Fassina are market liberals.

Considering this... charisma does matter. A big deal. And so does youth, and so does the apparent willingness to make some serious changes (which Bersani hasn't displayed during the campaign).

[Hash]

The PD come really close to the US Democrats, probably the closest any other party can come (maybe the ALP as well).

[Antonio the Sixth]

The PD come really close to the US Democrats, probably the closest any other party can come (maybe the ALP as well).

Yeah, the party's name certainly isn't casual.

[Keystone Phil]

There would be a left challenge to Renzi. Either Bersani or another man... Stefano [last name]. A primary would have to be held pre-election, pushing dissolution back a bit.

Who is this Stefano?

Also, would Vendola run again? How about Franceschini?

[Antonio the Sixth]

There would be a left challenge to Renzi. Either Bersani or another man... Stefano [last name]. A primary would have to be held pre-election, pushing dissolution back a bit.

Who is this Stefano?

Fassina, I assume. Probably one of the few in the PD who isn't a complete ideological sellout (at least I infer this from the fact Monti kept singling him out during the campaign).

[RogueBeaver]

Yeah, Fassina's the guy.

[Kitteh]

Looking at his wiki page, it seems Fassina was an economist at the IMF. If that's what's considered "leftist" within the context of the PD...

[Antonio the Sixth]

Epic things are happening right now.

So, Berlusconi was hospitalized a couple days ago for an eye infection. This allowed him to avoid attending several of his trials (thus preventing them from going on, while the statute of limitation is still ticking). A judge today requested - and obtained - that a tax inspection be sent to the hospital to certify that Berlusconi could effectively not attend the trial. Don't ask me how it is possible for tax services to do that... but anyway, they came in, visited Berlusconi, and certified that he was actually capable of attending. PdLers are outraged and calling the judges nazis and stalinists.

[RogueBeaver]

Renzi is now openly calling for a prelex primary if Bersani can't form a government. How to trigger one is the question.

http://www.corriere.it/politica/13_marzo_09/renzi-intervento-che-tempo-che-fa_8f6ebc7c-88e3-11e2-b463-ff37879da0fc.shtml

[Franknburger]

Epic things are happening right now.

So, Berlusconi was hospitalized a couple days ago for an eye infection. This allowed him to avoid attending several of his trials (thus preventing them from going on, while the statute of limitation is still ticking). A judge today requested - and obtained - that a tax inspection be sent to the hospital to certify that Berlusconi could effectively not attend the trial. Don't ask me how it is possible for tax services to do that... but anyway, they came in, visited Berlusconi, and certified that he was actually capable of attending. PdLers are outraged and calling the judges nazis and stalinists.

Well, I guess tax inspectors are the only ones that have a right to look at the medical records (to check whether they correspond to the billing), which are otherwise strictly confidential. While I would not call the judges stalinists, their approach is definitely on the border of legality (at least according to German standards).   

[Antonio the Sixth]

Epic things are happening right now.

So, Berlusconi was hospitalized a couple days ago for an eye infection. This allowed him to avoid attending several of his trials (thus preventing them from going on, while the statute of limitation is still ticking). A judge today requested - and obtained - that a tax inspection be sent to the hospital to certify that Berlusconi could effectively not attend the trial. Don't ask me how it is possible for tax services to do that... but anyway, they came in, visited Berlusconi, and certified that he was actually capable of attending. PdLers are outraged and calling the judges nazis and stalinists.

Well, I guess tax inspectors are the only ones that have a right to look at the medical records (to check whether they correspond to the billing), which are otherwise strictly confidential. While I would not call the judges stalinists, their approach is definitely on the border of legality (at least according to German standards).   

Yeah, that's unorthodox to say least. However, I can easily understand that judges are fed up of Berlusconi's dirty tricks and so would be ready to counterattack with their own legal tricks.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Renzi is now openly calling for a prelex primary if Bersani can't form a government. How to trigger one is the question.

http://www.corriere.it/politica/13_marzo_09/renzi-intervento-che-tempo-che-fa_8f6ebc7c-88e3-11e2-b463-ff37879da0fc.shtml

Renzi is 1000% right. He's right that if Bersani fails we need new elections, and he's obviously right that we need PD primaries.

[RogueBeaver]

Renzi gets the Murdoch endorsement, not that he should be publicizing it.

http://www.formiche.net/2013/03/09/renzi-murdoch-endorsement/

[You kip if you want to...]

First impressions on Renzi: douchey.

[Keystone Phil]

Renzi gets the Murdoch endorsement, not that he should be publicizing it.

http://www.formiche.net/2013/03/09/renzi-murdoch-endorsement/

I'm sure he endorsed Bersani, too, for obvious reasons.