So I actually went to a Catholic Mass today

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

This is the first time since...some wedding in high school probably, so over a decade. It was my cousin's first communion, I was initially going to the party and to visit my family but not attend the actual mass because I think the implications of a lot of Catholic beliefs on communion are close to blasphemous. But I decided that since I wasn't going to take communion anyway and since the ex-Catholic members of my family were attending, I would be kind of a jerk trying to be the exception. So I went.

There were basically next to no young adults in attendance besides me, and the few that were were obviously with their families like I was. I made a crack afterwards about how none were taking communion. I was also probably the most casually dressed person there, though I noticed one of the communion servers, who was probably the youngest (and by that, we're talking like mid-40s), was wearing jeans. So many ties and all the kids kind of ridiculously overdressed for kids, what's with those white dresses so many girls were wearing? And why do 8-year old boys wear suits and ties? What? Oh yeah some kid actually threw up, wasn't expecting that. I obviously didn't take communion, or say most of the liturgy (mostly because I didn't know it), and for the Apostle's Creed when the words were on the screen I simply skipped the Catholic stuff I disagreed with (I'm not going to say I believe in "one holy Catholic and apostolic church" or "the communion of saints" for example). I also promised my parents not to raise my hands in the air, though I noticed the worship leader sometimes did, though this seemed like she was signaling the church that it was their part in the songs. (Sheesh she was old too. The ones at my church are usually quite hot, and I noted the most frequent one resembles Alison Brie, so that's quite nice.)

But actually it wasn't that much different from a more traditional Lutheran service, and the priest didn't seem like that bad of a guy, he was actually pretty funny for such a formal delivery style, even though I obviously didn't agree with a lot in the obvious topic of communion in a Catholic sense and that he was still an old guy in funny clothes. But take out that and a few comments about the Virgin Mary near the end and it was pretty much the same thing. So I'll admit not exactly an abomination that I shouldn't be a jerk about, though it was still kind of boring and not something I'd go to almost every week, especially since I'd be out of place with it being almost all olds.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

I'm surprised too. Good work BRTD. Maybe, you'll finally convert all the way someday when you're in your mid sixties. It's a good start.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I'm surprised too. Good work BRTD. Maybe, you'll finally convert all the way someday when you're in your mid sixties. It's a good start.

It's probably far more likely that any hypothetical kids of mine, assuming they ever exist, will convert to Catholicism to be "ironic" and rebel against a hipster Christian upbringing.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

I'm surprised too. Good work BRTD. Maybe, you'll finally convert all the way someday when you're in your mid sixties. It's a good start.

It's probably far more likely that any hypothetical kids of mine, assuming they ever exist, will convert to Catholicism to be "ironic" and rebel against a hipster Christian upbringing.

The urge to be "ironic" is quite sickening.

[Napoleon]

I'm surprised too. Good work BRTD. Maybe, you'll finally convert all the way someday when you're in your mid sixties. It's a good start.

It's probably far more likely that any hypothetical kids of mine, assuming they ever exist, will convert to Catholicism to be "ironic" and rebel against a hipster Christian upbringing.

LOL.

I used to have to attend these with my grandparents from time to time as a child. I always did detest those days.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

BTW it was kind of funny at communion in the area where my family was to see my grandfather and one of my aunts get up while everyone else remained seated (since the parents of my cousin and his sister were sitting with him). Unfortunately since I'm tall and have long legs I had to awkwardly sort of stand up and prop myself against the back of the pew to let the other people get out.

Oh and it appears even the Catholics would admit their services don't get them as emotional or spirit-filled since I didn't notice anyone at the end "moved by the spirit" and sobbing like happens almost every time by the closing prayer at mine, though the room not being full of 20something females might be the primary reason.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

BRTD, I'd be interested to hear more about your views on the Eucharist and on the Communion of the Saints, which are two areas in which I'm particularly Catholic/Byzantine-leaning theologically. The ideas that the saints are still very much alive, in the past and in Heaven (whether already completed or still growing in their sight of God), and that the Communion is an axis mundi that connects us to the past and to the anticipated future of Heaven, are ideas that I have a hard time conceiving of a sensible, not totally bare-bones Christianity without.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

BRTD, I'd be interested to hear more about your views on the Eucharist and on the Communion of the Saints, which are two areas in which I'm particularly Catholic/Byzantine-leaning theologically. The ideas that the saints are still very much alive, in the past and in Heaven (whether already completed or still growing in their sight of God), and that the Communion is an axis mundi that connects us to the past and to the anticipated future of Heaven, are ideas that I have a hard time conceiving of a sensible, not totally bare-bones Christianity without.

I'm a memorialist, and I'm bothered by the premise that communion would not be "real" communion if not performed under the "right" conditions that other theologies on the subject can imply, such as in small groups or even churches without a formal ordination standard (like I go to now), I'm also reminded of the guy I talked to who at a United Church of Christ youth convention did communion with the kids using Coke and potato chips (sort of trying to add a more "modern" context to it), that Calvinist view is kind of the only one that works in those cases.

On "saints" I just have the evangelical view, all Christians are saints, to designate only certain individuals as saints I find a little problematic and the Catholic methods involved open a whole other theological can of worms I'm not willing to try to sort out. That's why I don't refer to any person as a saint unless it's a place name (I mean I would sound pretty strange talking about the state capitol in "Paul" for example.) I think it's also worth noting that just about everything in regards to my lifestyle and culture runs afoul to elevating an individual like that, like for example asking band members for autographs might be commonplace at huge rock concerts or with pop stars but at any show I'd go to it'd be considered a huge faux pas. It's not probably not an accident my whole scene is pretty lacking in real Catholics and I've never met, (of course it's not like I go around shows questioning people about their religion or anything, but I've been into this stuff for over 10 years and "Christians" often end up as a sort of clique on message boards, associating specifically with any denomination though is something generally frowned upon since that's "religion" instead of "following Jesus".)

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

But anyway Nathan would you take communion at a Catholic church? I still would at an Episcopalian even with disagreements over the Eucharistic theology.

[7,052,770]

Regional differences are fascinating.  I've rarely seen anyone wear a coat or tie to Catholic mass (occasionally some very old people) outside of Easter.  When I go (which isn't often), I usually wear a T-shirt and don't stand out.

Coat/tie wearing is almost universally associated here with Baptists, although now that they're all going to the wave-your-hands-in-the-air Pentecostal style, it's dying with them too.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

But anyway Nathan would you take communion at a Catholic church? I still would at an Episcopalian even with disagreements over the Eucharistic theology.

Yes, certainly, and I have (at funeral masses for Catholic relatives). There aren't many Christian churches at which I wouldn't take communion. Yours might or might not be one of those; I'm honestly not sure how exactly I'd respond to being for whatever reason at your sort of church.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I don't see how the non-transubstantiation (relying on the apostolic succession) theologies of the Real Presence contradict its existence in a memorialist church, even if the church is denying it, if that's your issue.

[Oakvale]

This thread has become so indechiperable that I'm enjoying reading it. It's like watching foreign-language TV.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I don't see how the non-transubstantiation (relying on the apostolic succession) theologies of the Real Presence contradict its existence in a memorialist church, even if the church is denying it, if that's your issue.

It's because I'm not certain of the apostolic succession in your church, though at first glance it seems more or less legit. There are certainly plenty of memorialist churches that I've taken communion at (again, mainly at funerals or weddings of loved ones who were considerably more low-church than I am).

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

This thread has become so indechiperable that I'm enjoying reading it. It's like watching foreign-language TV.

Oh, Eucharistic theology. Will basically be a foreign language to people not familiar. Quick summary:

Transubstantiation: This is the belief that the bread and wine in communion really become the Body and Blood of Christ, as the Catholic church believes, and I've found that people not familiar with anything besides Catholicism tend to think ALL Christians believe this, resulting in a lot of confusion.

Memorialism: Belief that the communion elements never become anything more than bread or wine, they are simply a symbolic ritual. The predominant view amongst evangelicals and charismatics (somewhat ironic I'll admit considering they are the same people doing faith healing rituals and all that), though also the belief in the most liberal churches too, so it's obviously where a somewhat progressive church from an evangelical background is going to stand here.

Real Presence: Basically the belief of any type of presence through communion and thus any Eucharistic theology that isn't memorialism, though the Catholic church argues that lack of an apostolic succession means that it can't exist in any non-Catholic churches except the Orthodox ones (a big sticking point between Episcopalians like Nathan and them since they would argue they also have an apostolic succession)

"High Church" Protestants like Nathan and lots of other Episcopalians (and some Lutherans, I thought of this place where my friend got married that I know Nathan would love and would be perfect for him even if they aren't Episcopal), definitely would see themselves closer to Catholics than any memorialist Protestants on this, even if the Catholic Church doesn't want them taking communion in a Catholic church.

I don't see how the non-transubstantiation (relying on the apostolic succession) theologies of the Real Presence contradict its existence in a memorialist church, even if the church is denying it, if that's your issue.

It's because I'm not certain of the apostolic succession in your church, though at first glance it seems more or less legit. There are certainly plenty of memorialist churches that I've taken communion at (again, mainly at funerals or weddings of loved ones who were considerably more low-church than I am).

Well you might want to note that we allow people who aren't "ordained" even by our loose definition to conduct services, like the woman this morning who is just a social psychology professor.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

That might be more problematic for me, depending.

Also, you're right: Mount Olive Church looks absolutely beautiful. I'd actually really like to check it out if I ever find myself in the Twin Cities.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Yeah they're obviously not really my type of church but I admire their commitment to socially progressive policies and LGBT-inclusion without falling into the type of quasi-Unitarian theology a lot of the other staunchly progressive churches around here do.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

I'm still struggling in believing brtd is a practicing Christian.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I'm still struggling in believing brtd is a practicing Christian.

What part do you not believe?

BTW if that's what you're thinking of I haven't gone to a strip club since...September I think? I don't really have a problem with them morally but I've gotten kind of bored, there was also an incident a few months back where I took some money withdrawal to visit one of those massage parlors and then realized that since I could afford this I could put the money to something less selfish, so I didn't visit and donated it to my church instead.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

I'm still struggling in believing brtd is a practicing Christian.

What part do you not believe?

Hey, c'mon I've been here since 2005 and you haven't exactly been on the religious side of life til recently, so it's taken me a bit to get used to.  I"m not trying to be critical it's just still an adjustment to get used to it.......better? 

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I'm still struggling in believing brtd is a practicing Christian.

What part do you not believe?

Hey, c'mon I've been here since 2005 and you haven't exactly been on the religious side of life til recently, so it's taken me a bit to get used to.  I"m not trying to be critical it's just still an adjustment to get used to it.......better? 

Ah, I get it. Will I think Torie said it best:

It's real Grumps. BRTD is like a clipper ship - very maneuverable.

[angus]

...all the kids kind of ridiculously overdressed for kids...

The fashion is so sad these days.  When I got first communion, it was 1975.  Oh, yeah, I had high-heel platform dress shoes, probably about a three inch heel.  light blue polyester three-piece suit with major bell bottoms.  The polyester pants flared out so much I couldn't even see the shoes I was wearing.  The suitcoat had big oversize lapels, and I was wearing a very wide stitched tie and a frilly fluffy dress shirt which was also blue.  I was disco Stu at my first communion. 

Nowadays, the kids probably all have pierced faces and tattoos by the time they take communion.  Skewer that wafer on a tongue stud. 

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

"One holy catholic and apostolic church" is in the Nicene Creed.  The Apostle's Creed just says "the holy catholic church" and says "communion of saints."    "catholic" here doesn't need to refer to Catholicism. It means "universal" and so can be understood as ecumenical (there is one church which trascends denominations). The "saints" also doesn't refer only to canonized saints, but to all Christians.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

"One holy catholic and apostolic church" is in the Nicene Creed.  The Apostle's Creed just says "the holy catholic church" and says "communion of saints."    "catholic" here doesn't need to refer to Catholicism. It means "universal" and so can be understood as ecumenical (there is one church which trascends denominations). The "saints" also doesn't refer only to canonized saints, but to all Christians.

In a Protestant church that might be the understanding which is why I don't have a problem saying it at a Lutheran one, but I'm not going to say those in a Catholic one.