The Official Star Trek Thread

[Middle-aged Europe]

I was more or less under the impression that Star Trek had gotten progressively worse ever since The Next Generation had ended. But Strange New Worlds is possibly the best Trek show since maybe Deep Space Nine now? The very puristic, yet modernized approach is very successful. This is the kind of Star Trek that would have been produced by Gene Roddenberry had he been born fifty years later.

I wondered how that came to be considering the previous duds. I actually don't know that much about that guy but a difference to Discovery and Picard is that SNW has a different co-showrunner/head writer in the person of Henry Alonso Myers, so maybe he's the one who exerts some positive influence here... similar to the role Mike McMahan played with Lower Decks which I now believe to be the second best contemporary incarnation of Star Trek. In any case, Alex Kurtzman beeing neutered always seems to be good thing here. I regard Kurtzman as Trek's version of Chris Chibnall if you catch my drift.

[politicallefty]

I was more or less under the impression that Star Trek had gotten progressively worse ever since The Next Generation had ended. But Strange New Worlds is possibly the best Trek show since maybe Deep Space Nine now? The very puristic, yet modernized approach is very successful. This is the kind of Star Trek that would have been produced by Gene Roddenberry had he been born fifty years later.

I wondered how that came to be considering the previous duds. I actually don't know that much about that guy but a difference to Discovery and Picard is that SNW has a different co-showrunner/head writer in the person of Henry Alonso Myers, so maybe he's the one who exerts some positive influence here... similar to the role Mike McMahan played with Lower Decks which I now believe to be the second best contemporary incarnation of Star Trek. In any case, Alex Kurtzman beeing neutered always seems to be good thing here. I regard Kurtzman as Trek's version of Chris Chibnall if you catch my drift.

I wouldn't say Star Trek has gotten worse since TNG, though I could be biased on account of really liking 90s Trek. When it comes to Picard, it's easier for me to see past the flaws on account of the cast, particularly the always-great Sir Patrick Stewart. I absolutely agree on your latter point though. SNW really does feel like something Gene Roddenberry would have produced today. However, I think it's better than that in one big way and that's the updated and modernized 60s retrofuture feel of the sets and costumes/hair/makeup. I think the overall look and feel would be something very different without TOS to look back on. All of that together really does create a certain charm that works so well.

I think the main difference between SNW and the other two shows is the extent of serialization, which I suppose would be the result of the direction of the showrunner. Season 2 of Picard really felt like just a long movie. (Season 1 didn't feel quite as serialized overall.) I still haven't taken the time to watch Discovery apart from the first few episodes, but my understanding is that that show is also hyper-serialized as well. The quasi-serialization of DS9 worked great because that was in the days of 26-episode seasons. There was plenty of time to run B-plots that really improved the episodes and helped develop more characters. Sometimes the B-plot is more enjoyable than the A-plot. On the other hand, the biggest problem with Voyager was too far in the other direction, its massive use of the reset button. So far, SNW is very episodic in its plots, but it has a very good flow with developing the main characters. If they have a major recurring villain, I think we have a good idea as to which race that will be.

[Middle-aged Europe]

I was more or less under the impression that Star Trek had gotten progressively worse ever since The Next Generation had ended. But Strange New Worlds is possibly the best Trek show since maybe Deep Space Nine now? The very puristic, yet modernized approach is very successful. This is the kind of Star Trek that would have been produced by Gene Roddenberry had he been born fifty years later.

I wondered how that came to be considering the previous duds. I actually don't know that much about that guy but a difference to Discovery and Picard is that SNW has a different co-showrunner/head writer in the person of Henry Alonso Myers, so maybe he's the one who exerts some positive influence here... similar to the role Mike McMahan played with Lower Decks which I now believe to be the second best contemporary incarnation of Star Trek. In any case, Alex Kurtzman beeing neutered always seems to be good thing here. I regard Kurtzman as Trek's version of Chris Chibnall if you catch my drift.

I wouldn't say Star Trek has gotten worse since TNG, though I could be biased on account of really liking 90s Trek. When it comes to Picard, it's easier for me to see past the flaws on account of the cast, particularly the always-great Sir Patrick Stewart. I absolutely agree on your latter point though. SNW really does feel like something Gene Roddenberry would have produced today. However, I think it's better than that in one big way and that's the updated and modernized 60s retrofuture feel of the sets and costumes/hair/makeup. I think the overall look and feel would be something very different without TOS to look back on. All of that together really does create a certain charm that works so well.

I think the main difference between SNW and the other two shows is the extent of serialization, which I suppose would be the result of the direction of the showrunner. Season 2 of Picard really felt like just a long movie. (Season 1 didn't feel quite as serialized overall.) I still haven't taken the time to watch Discovery apart from the first few episodes, but my understanding is that that show is also hyper-serialized as well. The quasi-serialization of DS9 worked great because that was in the days of 26-episode seasons. There was plenty of time to run B-plots that really improved the episodes and helped develop more characters. Sometimes the B-plot is more enjoyable than the A-plot. On the other hand, the biggest problem with Voyager was too far in the other direction, its massive use of the reset button. So far, SNW is very episodic in its plots, but it has a very good flow with developing the main characters. If they have a major recurring villain, I think we have a good idea as to which race that will be.

In addition, SNW portrays a rather optimistic vision of the future again while Discovery and Picard tend to be very bleak and pessimistic (DIS in particular).

DS9 was dark too compared to other Trek shows of the time but I didn't get the feeling that it was that dark all the time... more like "realistic" as opposed to the optimistic TNG and Voyager. DS9's "Dominion war arc" in the beginning of Season 6 was pretty bleak but that was only for like six episodes and then came Jadzia's and Worf's wedding episode.

[politicallefty]

In addition, SNW portrays a rather optimistic vision of the future again while Discovery and Picard tend to be very bleak and pessimistic (DIS in particular).

DS9 was dark too compared to other Trek shows of the time but I didn't get the feeling that it was that dark all the time... more like "realistic" as opposed to the optimistic TNG and Voyager. DS9's "Dominion war arc" in the beginning of Season 6 was pretty bleak but that was only for like six episodes and then came Jadzia's and Worf's wedding episode.

It's no revelation to say that the utopia that Star Trek envisioned and built upon came out of massive darkness. TOS and TNG mentioned the Eugenics War and WWIII. SNW actually went one step further and mentioned a Second Civil War in the United States.

With Picard, it makes perfect sense how the Federation became isolationist and xenophobic. It's the Federation less than a quarter of a century after multiple Borg incursions, a war with an enemy that became an ally that became an enemy once again, and the Dominion War (and we don't even know what happened in that intervening period). It's also not just attacks on the Federation, but attacks deep into the core worlds of the Federation. Earth was attacked multiple times and Betazed was outright occupied by the Dominion. The Federation went through so much during the 2360s-2370s that it's quite extraordinary it remained as well as it did.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Bet they had a lot of fun with that last episode. In other words, let's do an Alien hommage.

The re-imagined, scarier version of the Gorn had been dealth with before this season. But what has previously only been hinted at is now fully confirmed: They're essentially like the Xenomorphs from the Aliens universe, maybe with a bit of Predator fused into them (the Gorn's "heat vision"), leading to what must have been one of the goriest Star Trek episodes to date. And this is how it goes...


La'an = Ripley
Pike = Captain Dallas
Spock = Ash/Bishop
Sam Kirk = Private Hudson

There's even a young, traumatized, female survior with dirt in her face who is most definitely not Newt.

[FairBol]

I did not know we had a Star Trek thread...nice!

[FairBol]

So, any Trekkies here ?

:: raises hand ::

Live long and prosper. 

[Middle-aged Europe]

Interesting season finale... it was a hommage to, a revisitation, a reimagination of the classic 60s episode Balance of Terror, set in an alternate timeline. At the core was the question: What if Pike manages to escape his destiny?

They also introduced the character of James T. Kirk now, although the actor and the portrayal of the character didn't seem that Kirk-ish to me when compared to Shatner or Pine (or Spock/Ethan Peck for that matter). He was depicted as a young, but competent captain with a penchant for unorthodox, aggressive tactics, which made look Pike quite Picard-ish in comparison. For an iteration of Kirk he seemed maybe a bit too stern and serious though.

With the exeption of the clunker episodes 7 (the one with the space pirates) and 8 (the one with the fairy tale) this was a pretty strong season overall, perhaps even the strongest initial season of any Trek show since TOS... since most Trek series had a tendency to start off rather weakly, including TNG.

[Dereich]

In addition, SNW portrays a rather optimistic vision of the future again while Discovery and Picard tend to be very bleak and pessimistic (DIS in particular).

DS9 was dark too compared to other Trek shows of the time but I didn't get the feeling that it was that dark all the time... more like "realistic" as opposed to the optimistic TNG and Voyager. DS9's "Dominion war arc" in the beginning of Season 6 was pretty bleak but that was only for like six episodes and then came Jadzia's and Worf's wedding episode.

It's no revelation to say that the utopia that Star Trek envisioned and built upon came out of massive darkness. TOS and TNG mentioned the Eugenics War and WWIII. SNW actually went one step further and mentioned a Second Civil War in the United States.

With Picard, it makes perfect sense how the Federation became isolationist and xenophobic. It's the Federation less than a quarter of a century after multiple Borg incursions, a war with an enemy that became an ally that became an enemy once again, and the Dominion War (and we don't even know what happened in that intervening period). It's also not just attacks on the Federation, but attacks deep into the core worlds of the Federation. Earth was attacked multiple times and Betazed was outright occupied by the Dominion. The Federation went through so much during the 2360s-2370s that it's quite extraordinary it remained as well as it did.

Picard is different in that it presents those issues as endemic to society in a way that older series (even DS9) did not. I'd compare its society to the excellent DS9 two-parter Homefront/Paradise Lost. It certainly is dark; fear of the changelings leads to a coup to depose the civilian government and enact martial law. But in the end, the coup supporters aren't willing to go all the way and virtually all involved end up agreeing that its not worth sacrificing the "paradise" of the Federation out of fear. Or the Bell Riots in the Past Tense two-parter; there's plenty of emphasis there on how humans have mistreated each other in the "past" and the struggle to grow past that. DS9 shows its humans struggle with societal flaws that earlier series made it seem like had already been conquered. But in DS9 the message is still that we as a species can and have improve past our worst instincts, even if we still have to deal with them. Picard to me doesn't try to show a future better than the present. Its just the present with fancier tech.

[7,052,770]

Well, season 1 of Strange New Worlds was fantastic, especially the finale.

[politicallefty]

Interesting season finale... it was a hommage to, a revisitation, a reimagination of the classic 60s episode Balance of Terror, set in an alternate timeline. At the core was the question: What if Pike manages to escape his destiny?

They also introduced the character of James T. Kirk now, although the actor and the portrayal of the character didn't seem that Kirk-ish to me when compared to Shatner or Pine (or Spock/Ethan Peck for that matter). He was depicted as a young, but competent captain with a penchant for unorthodox, aggressive tactics, which made look Pike quite Picard-ish in comparison. For an iteration of Kirk he seemed maybe a bit too stern and serious though.

With the exeption of the clunker episodes 7 (the one with the space pirates) and 8 (the one with the fairy tale) this was a pretty strong season overall, perhaps even the strongest initial season of any Trek show since TOS... since most Trek series had a tendency to start off rather weakly, including TNG.

Yeah, I loved the reimagination of Balance of Terror. They even started it with a wedding! The whole episode is definitely one of the boldest in a very long time and it totally paid off. My only real complaint is that I wasn't really sold on this version of Captain Kirk. He kept reminding me of Jim Carrey.

I completely agree with you on the weakest episodes. I definitely didn't care for the space pirate episode. My personal top three would probably be Ghosts of Illyria, A Quality of Mercy, and All Those Who Wander. I'm gonna be really upset if Number One doesn't return for Season 2 though. She's definitely one of the best characters on the show. (I sort of wonder what would've happened if the original Star Trek pilot took off and Majel Barrett played the second-in-command.)

Picard is different in that it presents those issues as endemic to society in a way that older series (even DS9) did not. I'd compare its society to the excellent DS9 two-parter Homefront/Paradise Lost. It certainly is dark; fear of the changelings leads to a coup to depose the civilian government and enact martial law. But in the end, the coup supporters aren't willing to go all the way and virtually all involved end up agreeing that its not worth sacrificing the "paradise" of the Federation out of fear. Or the Bell Riots in the Past Tense two-parter; there's plenty of emphasis there on how humans have mistreated each other in the "past" and the struggle to grow past that. DS9 shows its humans struggle with societal flaws that earlier series made it seem like had already been conquered. But in DS9 the message is still that we as a species can and have improve past our worst instincts, even if we still have to deal with them. Picard to me doesn't try to show a future better than the present. Its just the present with fancier tech.

That's one of the problems though. Apart from a few episodes of DS9, you don't really understand what Earth is in the 24th century. Even then, it's mostly focused on a few characters and a couple major plots. I think the main issue with Picard is that it's hyper-serialized. You can't point to certain episodes as individual stories. While I did enjoy both seasons, I haven't gone back and re-watched any of it. I was re-watching episodes of SNW before the season even ended.

[7,052,770]

Here's how I rank the 10 episodes, at least as of right now, looking back:

1. A Quality of Mercy
2. Spock Amok
3. Memento Mori
4. Strange New Worlds
5. Lift Us Where Suffering Cannot Reach
6. All Those Who Wander
7. Ghosts of Illyria
8. The Serene Squall
9. Children of the Comet
10. The Elysian Kingdom

[politicallefty]

Here's how I rank the 10 episodes, at least as of right now, looking back:

1. A Quality of Mercy
2. Spock Amok
3. Memento Mori
4. Strange New Worlds
5. Life Us Where Suffering Cannot Reach
6. All Those Who Wander
7. Ghosts of Illyria
8. The Serene Squall
9. Children of the Comet
10. The Elysian Kingdom

Interesting. I'd probably rank them like this:

1. Ghosts of Illyria (3)
2. A Quality of Mercy (10)
3. All Those Who Wander (9)
4. Strange New Worlds (1)
5. Spock Amok (5)
6. Memento Mori (4)
7. Children of the Comet (2)
8. Lift Us Where Suffering Cannot Reach (6)
9. The Elysian Kingdom (8)
10. The Serene Squall (7)

I'll do a re-watch eventually, but I'll probably skip episodes 7 and 8. Otherwise, I really enjoyed everything else.

One thing I noticed when I was listing the episodes is that they sound so much like TOS episode titles. On the other hand, it's really excelled at bringing in some of the best of 90s Trek in terms of an ensemble cast and the overall plot designs.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Pretty fancy that Lower Decks essentially did a crossover with Deep Space Nine with that last episode... including guest voice appearances by Nana Visitor and Armin Shimerman!

Shaxs and Kira fought in the Bajoran resistance together? Well, of course they did.

And nice to see the old station again.

LD continues to be prove that it is probably the second-best of the contemporary Trek outings after Strange New Worlds. It's even better than Picard IMO, since LD tends to be more line with the "vision" and feeling of Star Trek, even if it does so in some self-deprecating manner.

[7,052,770]

Picard season 3 starts airing next week. After season 1 was disappointing and season 2 was just bad, I can't say I'm optimistic, but apparently the early reviews are pretty good. (Did we hear that last year too?)

If the entire TNG cast was willing to return, they should have just done that from the beginning.



ETA...I said this last year but I'm not sure why I thought that...

On the other hand, the season of Picard that just ended was so-so. It had its moments, but if I were ranking the now 34 complete seasons of live action Star Trek, it's probably no higher than 29th, ahead of season 1 of Picard, seasons 1, 3, and 4 of Discovery, and season 1 of TNG.

And for that matter I don't think it was better than season 1 of Discovery either, and ... maybe not season 1 of TNG?

[Middle-aged Europe]

SPOILERS FOR THE FIRST EPISODE AHEAD.





Saw the season premiere. It's good that we got Picard, Riker, Seven, and Beverly back. I especially liked Picard's and Riker's "odd couple" dynamic.

I still had some issues with the writing, although it had - at times - been worse in the past. I guess what annoyed me most was the depiction of the U.S.S. Titan's new captain. Sure, Starfleet had it's share of obstructive bureaucrats and insane admirals before, but this one probably takes the cake. Capt. Shaw is a tyrannical asshole who instills no loyalty whatsoever, constantly bullies his subordinates (including coercing his first officer to go by a different more "human"-sounding name), and deliberately subjects a retired Starfleet admiral and a senior captain to humiliating treatment because Shaw, well, seems to enjoy that (forcing Picard and Riker to share bunk beds of lower ranks). This sort of behaviour almost came across as cartoonish and one wonders why no one ever filed - IMO completely justified - complaints with Starfleet Command, leading to his dismissal as captain. Edward Jellico was despite all his hardass-ness at least acting professional, Shaw on the other hand seems to suffer from an antisocial personality disorder.

But like I said, keeping the spotlight on Patrick Stewart and Jonathan Frakes and the chemistry between them elevated the episode for me.

[Middle-aged Europe]

[politicallefty]

I've enjoyed the first two episodes, but this level of serialization makes the overall story run so slow. It may be too much to wish for the old 26-episode seasons (where they actually managed to truly flesh out the main characters and even some of the of the recurring), but even something in the high teens to 20 would be quite nice.

[7,052,770]

I've enjoyed the first two episodes, but this level of serialization makes the overall story run so slow. It may be too much to wish for the old 26-episode seasons (where they actually managed to truly flesh out the main characters and even some of the of the recurring), but even something in the high teens to 20 would be quite nice.

Yeah, the creators of modern Star Trek generally don't know and don't care what the fans actually want, Strange New Worlds being a begrudging exception from them.

Picard season 1 was better on rewatch when I binged it. I haven't rewatched season 2 and I think it would still be pretty bad, but probably better on a binge. If they insist on super serialization like this (way more than DS9 or Enterprise season 3 ever did), they should at least release them all at once

[politicallefty]

Yeah, the creators of modern Star Trek generally don't know and don't care what the fans actually want, Strange New Worlds being a begrudging exception from them.

Picard season 1 was better on rewatch when I binged it. I haven't rewatched season 2 and I think it would still be pretty bad, but probably better on a binge. If they insist on super serialization like this (way more than DS9 or Enterprise season 3 ever did), they should at least release them all at once

My understanding with Picard is that the first two seasons weren't highly regarded, so they basically decided to just bring back the main cast from TNG. They probably should've done that from the start. One thing that stuck out to me in this new season is that the chemistry between Patrick Stewart and Jonathan Frakes is as strong as ever. It honestly kind of put a smile on my face. Sometimes you've got to stick with what works. I think serialization in this is more tolerated because they have popular characters like Jean-Luc Picard, Data, and Seven (not to mention Guinan and Q). With S3, it's clear they're going for fan approval by bringing everyone else back.

Serialization in ENT S3 didn't seem to be very popular. I thought it was a pretty good season though, but watching S4 a few years ago is what really pissed me off that is was cancelled prematurely. ENT S4 was some of the all-time best Trek, really building a good story for the years just before the founding of the Federation. The mini-arcs were so good at fleshing out the history of that time. Shran (played by the ever-great Jeffrey Combs) was apparently supposed to become part of the permanent cast for S5. We can't have nice things, can we? 

DS9-style serialization worked great. The characters had been fully fleshed out and we knew who they were. Even with that though and the Dominion War raging, they still managed to put out 26-episode seasons. Not every episode had to be a grand spectacle. If the characters are well-written and fleshed out, all you need is a good story. I'm worried that SNW will fail to live up to its potential due to the short seasons. Even just going up to 15 would do a lot of service for the show, I think. All parts of the main cast need some time to shine.

[Middle-aged Europe]

I've seen the first three episodes now.

I would say that after the abysmal Season 2 this marks a return to form (of sorts) for this show. Depending how good it holds together in the end - and that's hardly a given for Picard - it could even turn out to be this show's best season so far.

Pretty low bar, of course. It's still not as good as Strange New Worlds, far better than Discovery (although it wouldn't exactly require rocket science to achieve that), and definitely light-years awy from TOS, TNG, DS9. It's maybe Voyager or Enterprise level of quality, meaning it's... watchable.

It certainly helps in overlooking the flaws that with the exception of Rafi they have dropped all those bland and/or annoying characters from the previous seasons and brought back (so far) Jonathan Frakes, Gates McFadden, Michael Dorn, and Marina Sirtis instead.

Even Capt. Shaw, despite my earlier skepticism, has kind of grown on me ever since he started to show concern for the well-being of his crew and turned out, on occasion, to be a reasonable authority figure. It's just that he is a overly blunt, overly sarcastic, overly eccentric Starfleet captain.

[Middle-aged Europe]

SPOILERS:








Ah, btw, maybe it's supposed to be a sign for the advanced Federation medical technology, but am I the only one who found it a bit curious that Beverly conceived and gave birth to another son in her mid-50s ?

[politicallefty]

Pretty low bar, of course. It's still not as good as Strange New Worlds, far better than Discovery (although it wouldn't exactly require rocket science to achieve that), and definitely light-years awy from TOS, TNG, DS9. It's maybe Voyager or Enterprise level of quality, meaning it's... watchable.

It certainly helps in overlooking the flaws that with the exception of Rafi they have dropped all those bland and/or annoying characters from the previous seasons and brought back (so far) Jonathan Frakes, Gates McFadden, Michael Dorn, and Marina Sirtis instead.

I think I'm pretty much in agreement with you on that. I can nitpick a few things, but I won't. This last episode really got me excited for the next and that's always a good thing.

Spoiler alert! Click Show to show the content.

Show

I had a suspicion when Jack hit that "Starfleet saboteur", but I didn't think it was actually going to be what I thought. It turns out that it was: Changelings. I honestly have to wonder if the Female Changeling will be in this somehow or some way. A new war with the Dominion has great potential for a new show down the road.

[Middle-aged Europe]

That fourth episode was pretty decent as far as "space survival" stories go.

Some mysteries were resolved (Shaw's backstory, why Jack never sought out his father), while others continued to build up (who is Vadic working for and what is her connection to Jack?).

Overaching theme of the episode, and apparently the overall season as well, is "family", both biologically and metaphorically (in form of Starfleet crewmembers).


Only hair in the soup: This show is still way too dark, and I mean that literally. They need some more lights on that ship of theirs... a point that has already started to get satirized in fan circles.

[🇺🇦 Purple 🦄 Unicorn 🇮🇱]

Too bad Vadic is pronounced "-ick" in both the English and German version.

I would have preferred the Balkan-style "Va-dit(s)ch" pronounciation. Maybe it makes sense in English, but for German the Balkan-version would be better.



Also, they shouldn't have translated "The Shryke" to "Würger" ... just left it as "The Shryke" instead.

Apparently, it's the name of a bird:



And: Amanda Plummer makes a really convincing villain.

Spoiler alert! Click Show to show the content.

Show

Other than that, I like the fact that Seven is a fan of Mozart apparently and that Prof. Moriarty will soon make a comeback:



Also, I agree with others who have already said that the show is still too dark. It reminds me of the chaotic action-ridden "Discovery", which was a total disaster of a show. Scene-wise, season 3 is pretty good so far though. A little annoying that the changelings mention of "Solids" in German (from DS9) has now been translated to "Monoforme" or something. They should have sticked with "Solids" as translation, because "Monoforme" just sounds weird in this connex and DS9 lovers.